by Cunt Incognita (Fisse in Denmark) [she=he]
I had a chat with a nice woman over the internet, who figured she wouldn’t mind supporting me in getting some answers from the separatist men’s group that Dani is currently involved in, supposedly focusing on dealing with her oppressive behaviors.
I sent her some background info in a mail,
hello,
the main recipient of this email is you Cellycel, but i send it to the men’s group and to Julian as well as Dani, since i wish to be transparent in what I do.
i appreciate that you (Cellycel) are willing to send an email to the group to require about what methods they use in this particular case, when there is a woman wanting to confront a man involved in the activities of the group.
i’ve found that dani’s behavior has been extremely manipulative and harmful, and doubt that the group is a constructive place for her to deal with her damaging behaviors.
i feel really uncomfortable and exposed in the contact with the group. and am wondering why there is no transparency.
i get the feeling that the behavior of the group (the non-response) is reinforcing the belief in Dani that there is something wrong with how I reacted to her abusive behaviors and not that her behaviors actually have a negative effect on what happens around her, and that she has a responsibility in taking care of the mess (emotional damages in people around her) initiated by herself.
what really sickens me at the moment is the way this man has manipulated a (now former) comrade and a friend of mine into believing that i’ve attempted to rape Dani, and in this way is continuing in having a negative misogynist impact on my everyday life, by having this person terrorizing me with sexist and misogynist speech.
i would like to urge the men’s group to come up with what strategies they have to deal with a case such as this, that currently exists within their group: How do they deal with a woman wanting to confront a man behaving in a sexist way, taking part in the group’s activities?
some related blog posts:
rape charges made by a friend of Dani, apparently supported by Dani in verbally harassing me on the internet (i can show you some really nasty samples if you wish. this is not the worst stuff)
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability/
after having an abusive conversation going on on several forums and different threads, i decided to “prove” my point. which i feel i shouldn’t have to do. but still. here it is:
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/hetero-man-in-poly-power-trip-land/
previous emails sent involving Dani, Me and the Group (with no response from the group)
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/breaking-the-silence-breaking-the-isolation-dani/
and the response i had to Dani, about the purpose for meeting up
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/the-purpose-of-a-meeting-ending-misogyny-dani/
the former friend and comrade – relating to Dani – is on the forum saying about the process that Dani is going through with the group:
“I want Milla to leave Dani alone. He needs another kind of approach. He has gotten help from profeminist men. I don’t want Milla to interfere with this process. It is his personal.”
“Milla is unfair. Dani has no way to defend himself without being labeled sexist. That builds frustration and sense of injustice in him. Such emotions are breeding ground for sexism and male violence.”
“If you are a sexist male, you have no support. But if you are a male who has been unfairly victimized by feminist, they will form a camraderie.”
“Females can do anything they want to males, and males cannot retaliate. You can go around slapping them on the face, but the males cannot say an abusive word back at you. Then they have a clenched fist in their pockets and go and hit someone that is innocent, another male, transgendered woman, gay male, whatever. Because they have no way of getting back.”
and the same person speaking of a situation where I was excluded from a social centre in Helsinki, but told that I could come back if I promised not to speak about feminism [sic!] and this in relation to how this person feels about what’s been going on between Dani and me:
“…it has become apparent that discussing feminism is OK unless it is the rabid-kind of misandria Milla is practicing.”
and the same person giving the reasons for the current flood of misogyny coming my way. Answering the question: “What, then, got you so upset that you suddenly turned against almost everything that Milla is presenting?”
“Many different things. It all started with the case of disrupters in CrimethInc convergence in Pittsburgh. I first thought how they resolved the issue as a comparition. The disrupters had a legitimate point, but they did not carry it out very well. They told people to go back to Europe. they were not aware that some of the white queer participants weren’t that privileged. Many joined the disrupters just because they seemed to be cutting-edge radicals.
I started to see Milla as a disruptor. Just a fleeting thought. I became open-minded to ideas from Dani, whom I knew already, as well as Petra, who knew both Milla and Dani. Am I politically aligned with Milla only because she seems to be radical.”
here it’s clearly stated that this person has started this witch hunt in relation to a correspondence going on with Dani.
in order to prove Dani’s impact on the sexism reaching me in this i put this quote here as well:
“I have considered Milla and Dani both my friends. Milla got me involved in this fight, otherwise I would’ve ignored it. I discovered that her brand of feminism is very disturbed and distorted kind. It especially comes apparent in issues relating to prostitution.
I tried to understand Dani. I have had a conversation with him all along this fight and I have not spared strong words.”
all along the fight lasting for a month, Dani has fed this person with thoughts and ideas severely harming the friendship we had.
i feel it’s time that the men’s group opens up on what structures they have to deal with the societal, interpersonal and intra-personal madness called sexism.
what do they do about this woman wanting to confront a man involved in group activity? how do they deal with it? what structures are there? (and how come the response is so slow?)
if you have any further questions on this, or anything else you need in order to contact the men’s group – just ask.
and
thanks Cellycel for making me feel not so alone in this
❤ milla
Filed under: > Cunt Incognita, .. Morze |
Another scene is possible 
Hi Milla and Cellycel, and the rest,
I am interested in at the very least hearing from the group about what their policy if they even have one for dealing with a male member’s sexism towards a women in his life. I agree this ought to be transparently shared, as this is question of their policies, their ethics as a profeminist/antisexist group of men. Why should they get to be “secretive” or nonresponsive to those who inquire about this policy? What sort of “accountability” is that. I just made the point to a man that “if you are the one who decides which women you will be accountable to, as opposed to being accountable to any woman you encounter, then your politics are obviously self-serving and male supremacist, because the whole point of profeminist accountability” is YOU DON’T HAVE ALL THE CONTROL! It doesn’t mean you have NONE either. It means you are called to behave responsibly and responsively. “Response-ability”: the ability to respond, has not yet been demonstrated by this group, in my experience.
Julian
I’m glad you’re feeling a bit less alone in this madness: keep in mind the madness, truly, is in the way Dani has been behaving throughout, along with his supporter(s), and in the way the group is NOT responding. THAT is patriarchal, pro-male supremacist madness (called perfectly acceptable and nonviolent behavior by the powers that rule).
What you’re experiencing, if I hearing you and understanding your plight with any degree of accuracy, is an appropriate response to madness presented as normality AND that you have been feeling what I can only term “an appropriate range of feelings”, including, partly, feeling crazy for thinking there’s something really wrong going on in this antifeminist/anti-woman militantly “climate-controlled environment” called white male supremacist “civilisation”.
What is one to feel in a situation that is utterly insane and maddening? Sane? Happy? Calm? At peace? I don’t think so.
The dilemma faced by most oppressed people that I know, including myself as a gay white Jewish man on two of those four counts, is that if we are to refuse to name things the way dominant society does, and, especially, if we are to DEMAND accountability, we will be made to feel like we’re ridiculous, silly, crazy, stupid, and EXTREMELY hostile to “a normal, well-functioning society”.
The violence the society does is not called violence, after all. Any resistance to it, or critique of it’s alleged non-violence is considered an atrocity against the State and its actors. I am reminded here of a bit of Derrick Jensen’s writing (made quite concisely and neatly) although it is a point many feminists have made over the decades:
Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.
In active and direct support as long as you are sober,
Julian
I have to say Milla’s request about the openness of the methods of the group is validated, it would not infringe with the confidentiality of the group.
Milla is rendering a lot of power to Dani. It reminds me with Laura and a male harassing her in the University premises. Laura believed he had unique talents and could get away with anything by speaking legalese. No he didn’t. The campus guard was untouched by him, so was the person who was in charge of equality matters in the Student’s Union.
Dani is not that manipulative, Milla. You are manipulative!
by Milla
Pre Kaarina wrote:
“Dani is not that manipulative, Milla. You are manipulative!”
— I have not been speaking behind Dani’s back.
— I’m open with what I do.
— Dani has every possibility to confront me on what I’m doing and saying.
— I do not refuse discussion with Dani. [i’m FOR discussing] I do not refuse to talk through whatever nasty behavior I’ve exposed her to (drinking and writing unarticulated aggressive things on her facebook in frustration over not being heard or cared for when it comes to dealing with her sexism, and once: trying to kiss her with open mouth) [i’m FOR me being accountable for the things i do and say]
— I do not refuse working out clear boundaries (To Leave The Guy Alone !! ) if it’s done with sensitivity to my needs as well. [i’m FOR making clear boundaries, and working out something that BOTH feel comfortable with]
Pre Kaarina is the one who is rendering me (and apparently all persons born with female genitals) a lot of power..
“Power” = Talking about the shitty behaviors that Dani has and how i felt about it, and how it affected me (first in private, and when that didn’t work- in a public open space). I’ve also shared experiences with persons that have been or are intimately involved with this person. And: I’ve been transparent about it.
The manipulations of Dani:
1. Lying
2. Non-transparency
3. Emotional manipulation
4. Not taking responsibility over the hurt that other people cause me because of Dani doing the first 2 above mentioned points to them as well (as for instance with the case of Pre Kaarina trying to shut me up by saying that I’ve raped the guy and thereby LYING – as well as PK being secretive and protective about her information is CLEARLY MANIPULATIVE and NON-TRANSPARENT – i do admit that there’s been a *few* quotes from Dani being passed on though. but it would be a hell of a lot easier to confront the emo-flooding coming from PK if i would understand better the source of it. for instance: What the hell is Dani saying about me behind my back? What causes this sudden and open hatred from someone who only a short time ago considered herself to be a friend and comrade?)
Clearly in this case, Dani has the power&privilege to remain silent and never ever have to deal with her abusive behaviors towards me, she has the power&privilege to never ever have to relate to the hell i went through, and still be considered a “good guy”.
She has the power and privilege to decide
IF this is discussed, and in that case
WHEN, and
HOW. (!!!)
The issue of her being abusive to women close to her is seen as the “personal” problems of these women, or the problem of the twisted society that we live in. Dani – as an individual causing other individuals harm – can not be held accountable for anything it seems (?!)
In PK’s description of this it is clearly stated that all abusive behavior from this man is the fault of the women around her.. While: I have the “power” to speak openly how i feel about that situation, and be considered a “sexually coercive”, “verbally abusive”, “manipulative”, “man-hater” with immense power to “destroy” the life and reputation of Dani.
I’m sick of the distortions. I’m sick of the manipulations. I’m sick of Dani staying in the shadows – not reaching out and looking for a nice end to this conflict. Especially since she is connected with the men’s group and would have every possibility to make that happen. (!!!)
I’m sick of me being abused by this guy being seen as me having ” female privileges” and “power” over this guy. (!!!) [In this case it would then be appropriate for me to say: “Thank you Dani for all the Privilege and Power you have granted me” (?!) Sick !!! ]
This is the message that I sent the group:
Hello,
I identify myself in feminist circles on the internet by the name Cellycel, and I am a radical feminist living in Australia. I met Milla through facebook regarding an issue of racism in an American radical feminist organization, where we worked together a little bit and started connecting and talking.
I recognize that no-one besides Milla has any idea of who I am, and I’m sorry about that, I guess there isn’t much I can do to solve that though.
Before saying anything about the group that isn’t specifically related to issues with Dani and Milla I want to say that while I can appreciate that there can be value in having mens only spaces where men can talk to each other freely to explore their own issues I hope you can understand why, right from the outset, women and feminist groups might be wary of mens organizations, and so would desire transparency in regards to policies and procedures. Not just policies about how to handle issues regarding male members sexism towards women in their personal lives, but even policies regarding decision making and discussion management.
Now I want to talk about Milla’s issues with Dani directly. As I understand it, you are specifically a group against male violence. Milla, a radical feminist woman, has stated that Dani has abused her and continues to lie to women, and to hurt women. Having a member in your group who has been abusive towards women isn’t necessarily a bad thing, I do not know if therapy to help such men understand they have a responsibility to the women in their lives is something that you do as an organization, for example.
All I know, is that there is a woman, who wants to confront a man in your organization about sexism and abuse, that she has asked for the group to come up with strategies for how to deal with this specific situation and for similar situations, and for these strategies to be made transparent. This seems like a fair request, but there has been no response from your organization.
So I add my name to a list of people concerned about the lack of transparency regarding our organizational principles, strategies and policies, particularly as they apply in this specific issue.
Please respond to this issue,
Cellycel
so u break up wit dis daniel kid almost 6 monts ago an u still goin on abt it
nigga what
by Milla
so i’ve been affected by sexist injustice and i’m still trying to do something about it
honky what
[…] on the visions, and views she wish to support. I will send her this links to this blog post < CONFRONTING MISOGYNY >, where Pre Kaarina openly expresses her support of sexist men in relation to women wanting to […]