Breaking the silence – Breaking the isolation (dani)

by Cunt Incognita (Pyzda in Vilnius)

broken_phone

Dani in a social network on a broken phone speaking of Love Solidarity Care and Equality.

I would like to highlight the essence of – the way i’ve gotten to understand – dani’s perception and practice of anti-sexism (in response to the question: what is she concretely doing to make it feel safe for me to talk about my feelings in relation to the abusive behaviors she’s had towards me?)

>>

Dániel Vázsonyi, Oct 30 2009:

“i dont care if you feel safe and i dont want to hear how you feel
about anything i did”

>>

For a long time i really wanted to believe that Dani was on the level. That sometime “later” she would listen to me, and be able to talk through the fucked up power relations going on in the connection we had for about a year.

I guess I use this space as a place where i don’t have to be isolated with what she says. It’s so easy to believe all the things you told me Dani, such as: “i love you”, “everybody else hates you”. Now it’s that i “sexually abused” you. You said the same about Hajni. And that your relation with Réka is that you were just in a weird power ‘dialogue’ with one another. And that you ‘couldn’t help’ act the way you do – be viciously mean to her – when she’s ‘submissive’.

You’ve said openly that you respond to desperation. That you seek out women who are emotionally vulnerable, because you ‘respond’ to that.
I’ve been messed up. Slowly waking up to reality (the illusion – “love” “care” “solidarity” “equality” – you promised, never turned real).

I tried to get a meeting with you to talk about the power you had over me, in a setting where i wouldn’t feel totally destroyed and manipulated by your behavior. Yesterday you responded to a mail i sent to you and the Stop Male Violence group about the possible mediated meeting between us. Then shortly after that you responded once more, in private, giving a different tone to what you had said in the official reply.

I will publish the correspondence that followed. Something that I found severely abusive and harmful. And it felt even worse having a men’s group dealing with male socialization ‘witnessing’ it. Not knowing if any of them care, if they will read the correspondence or even see what’s not okay in Dani’s behavior.

Dani has managed to collect a network around her with people willing to deny her harmful behaviors (different versions ranging from: “no sexism there” to “dealing with the sexism” to “too messed up to deal with anything”) and even protect and support her in relation to me. What i’m afraid of is that she’s manipulating the men’s group in the same way as she manipulates other people around her.

So. I’m doing the only thing i feel emotionally works for me at the moment, lacking community support in dealing with this. I write. And i publish. To make it real somewhere. That this is painful. And harming. And just not okay.

I’m so angry. And sad. And sick to my stomach over and over again, that this guy’s words can get to me. That this guy’s reality is supported over and over again.

It’s just sick. That’s what it is. And i refuse getting suicidal over this again.

❤ ❤ ❤   <33    ❤ ❤      ❤

❤ 3  ❤ ❤     ❤  <33

❤ ❤       ❤      ❤ [welcome to: a love story made of farts and hearts]

Oct 26, from me to Dani and the Stop Male Violence group. Subject line: “greetings (and resisting sexism)” >>

hello,

this is milla again..

i’m still being an idiot about wanting to confront this guy Dani V.
who is supposedly “working” on her sexism.. dunno what kind of
connection you’re having with the guy, but in real life she’s not
making any noticeable progress (apart from telling women that she’s in
this group, and that she’s a feminist)

[i call everybody she. if you want to know why, read this:
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/she/ ]

some of the latest Dani-drama can be read here:
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/sick-of-petyas-excuses-sure-take-your-time/

So when do i get to talk with you about these things with you Dani?
When do you figure would be a good time to deal with your sexism?

milla


ps. i sincerely hope that this guy isn’t manipulating the hell out of
this group in the same way as she’s controlling and mind-fucking the
women around her.

Oct 30, from Dani to me and the group >>

ok… ive been sick mostly laying in bed so i had a lot of time to think things through…
on the last mens group meeting we talked a bit about my issues with you… i (really awkwardly) started to talk about what happened between us back in January… i think the environment there i suitable for me to uncover my traumas… whereas any meeting with you would just deepen it… i cant take you… i dont like it, but everytime i talk to you or see a message on facebook or hear about you from someone i feel sick to my stomach (i guess its all the things coming to me that were hurtful during the time we spent together)
Bert advised me to think through what concrete results would i expect from a mediated meeting and i have only one:
set some boundaries, but since yours involve me caring about you i dont think there is any sense in a mediated meeting… that is my well thought out current opinion…

d

here comes some background correspondence. i’m posting the whole email exchange. but it can also be read from where Dani continues replying on Oct 30 after having written the official response, she replies to me as well in private.

Sept 9, From Dani to me and a person from the Stop Male Violence group. Subject line: “letter” >>

dear Bert, could you mediate a talk between me and milla in the beginning of december?

Sept 27, From Bert to me and Dani >>

I am not in Budapest at the beginning of December. Away from the 24th
November and back earliest 16th of December, maybe some days later.

Bert

Oct 2, From me to Bert and Dani >>

hello,

i have an urgent need to deal with this.

can’t remain calm about it. many feelings. scared of more abuse in the
company of a feminist man. wondering what you do to prevent that? (if
there’s any concrete way of dealing with the aftermath of an abusive
meeting? if there’s any support or way of caring for the person in my
position?)

i could probably meet sometime in january.
(of course it also pisses me off that i’m the one who have to go where
dani is to get this done. while this action is not the least
appreciated nor wanted by her. — and at the same time, i’d like to
find a nice way of stopping the continuous re-living of the shitty
experiences i had with her. there’s hurt upon hurt upon hurt. and
backlashes and fighting in an alcoholic aggressive way to get
recognition of the hurt done. the exhausting emptying fighting to get
her to deal with it. i don’t want to lose more energy on it. i want to
trust that she’s really going to make this meeting happen. stop the
bullshit.)

okay.

bye bye

milla

Oct 2, From me to Bert and Dani >>

hello world..

just feel like passing on (some) info about what is going on to you Bert,

i’ve talked with Kelly, the woman who sent the other statement about
being hurt about dani’s behavior. and we agreed that she would pass on some questions in writing from me to dani. that dani then would reply to in writing and send to Kelly, who would pass it on to me [seems complicated.. but emotionally it works a whole lot better than direct contact..]

so i thought i would share these questions with you. the letter i
wrote to Kelly today:

:::::
:::::

i will have a workshop on monday. hopefully some people will show up for it. so if we could meet around 9:30 your (finnish) time?

====
the questions i have for dani to be passed on by you:

– what is she practically doing to arrange the meeting with Bert?
– what is she concretely doing to make it feel safe for me to talk
about my feelings in relation to the abusive behaviors she’s had
towards me?
– what’s the purpose for her meeting up? (since she said that she’s
just interested in getting rid of me, and that what i say is distorted
and an avalanche of bullshit* – she hasn’t said anything about wanting
to deal with sexism. doesn’t she care to heal wounds caused by her?)

and the question i have for you both:
– how about having a net-meeting where the three of us would meet up and talk about the behaviors that i’ve (in vain) tried to get
discussed with dani. for me it would be an interesting experiment.
cause this would show concretely what i find problematic with dani’s
way of (not) dealing with her behaviors or taking responsiblity for
the harm caused by her in intimate relations. (you Kelly said that you
would like to talk with me cause i can provide info that dani wouldn’t
give you or talk with you about, since you wouldn’t know what to ask
for. this would be a good way of skipping the “broken phone” and make it possible to see for ourselves what the interaction looks and feels like – and you and i Kelly would have something concrete to point at and talk about when we talk with each other about dani’s behaviors)

the only negative thing i could see with this would be that – just as
you said before Kelly, that you didn’t really feel anything about the
letter i had sent to the Stop Male Violence group about my desperate
situation, you said that it felt “natural” – so the only freaky scary
thing in having a talk like this would be that dani would have an
opportunity to be completely abusive and that the two of you would be okay with that since the violence has already been normalized. [i’m speaking openly about how i see and feel about the situation – i’m not saying what i say to “attack” or “harm”. and that’s also a reason to
why i’m really sad about why dani is not taking this seriously.]

* in short putting what i find problematic with dani’s way of not facing this =

she says that my reality is “distorted” and “an avalanche of bullshit”
and dani is saying about herself that “sure i’m sexist. but i don’t
care about you or what you have to say, i don’t want to hear it”

:::
:::

Oct 30, Dani responding to me privately >>

the questions i have for dani to be passed on by you:

– what is she practically doing to arrange the meeting with Bert?

i talked to him in the mens group and sent a mail

– what is she concretely doing to make it feel safe for me to talk
about my feelings in relation to the abusive behaviors she’s had
towards me?

i dont care if you feel safe and i dont want to hear how you feel about anything i did

– what’s the purpose for her meeting up? (since she said that she’s just interested in getting rid of me, and that what i say is distorted and an avalanche of bullshit* – she hasn’t said anything about wanting to deal with sexism. doesn’t she care to heal wounds caused by her?)

no i dont care to heal your wounds… you have to find another way to heal im sorry…
the purpose for meeting up would be to prevent any harm that could be caused IN THE FUTURE… hence setting boundaries (which wouldnt work, cause you want me to care)


and the question i have for you both:
– how about having a net-meeting where the three of us would meet up and talk about the behaviors that i’ve (in vain) tried to get discussed with dani. for me it would be an interesting experiment.
cause this would show concretely what i find problematic with dani’s way of (not) dealing with her behaviors or taking responsiblity for the harm caused by her in intimate relations. (you Kelly said that you would like to talk with me cause i can provide info that dani wouldn’t give you or talk with you about, since you wouldn’t know what to ask for. this would be a good way of skipping the “broken phone” and make it possible to see for ourselves what the interaction looks and feels like – and you and i Kelly would have something concrete to point at and
talk about when we talk with each other about dani’s behaviors)

since Kelly also doesnt want your company i guess this is out of the question aswell… my answer is: no i wouldnt like to talk to you if possible

Oct 31, From me to Dani AND the group >>

hello men,

i still feel highly unsafe when there is something coming from you dani. cause this is something i’ve been left alone with for such a long time. speaking with Lotte helped. (against your complaints about me contacting people you know – as if you own them)

the only reason you sent the mail to Bert was because after you had promised to make this happened it took about two weeks with no sign whatsoever on that you would do what you said that you would do. so i contacted you through chat.

and even wrote the sentense that you passed on to Bert. to show you that it’s not that complicated to fulfill your promises.

lately i’ve been supporting a woman of color pointing out and
resisting racism within radical feminist circles.
https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/racism-and-backstabbing-white-supremacist-feminism/

when i started supporting her, i realized all the shit you did to me. making the comparison. that i could never in my life see myself behave in the same way that you’ve been behaving towards me (just coming on to me in a sleazy way, trying out sexual positions, talking about love and in practice meaning control [you] and submissive caring behaviors [me] with no responsibility whatsoever on your side to put in action
“love” “care” “solidarity” or “equality”)

if i would show solidarity and support in the same way to this woman as you’ve shown me i would have to kill myself. (or at least start doing something about my fucked up ways and hopefully take in the pain and hurt that i’ve caused)

you’re a big ass liar.

and i don’t really trust the group either in taking this shit seriously.

i’ve totally alone in this. that’s been the worst part.
having to put up with your shit all alone.
thinking that i was alone with it.
even though you repeat the same pattern with all the women (it’s not only me you don’t care about. it’s all of us).

you can’t go on like this.
being full of blaming self-pity.
continuing doing harm.

so much for solidarity and support.
so much for love.

milla

Oct 31, From me to Dani and the group >>

hello men,

AND i think it’s absolutely fucked up that you, dani, answered these questions separately, only sending the stuff to me

“no i don’t care to heal your wounds” and “i wouldn’t like to talk with you if possible”

well. for me. it would still be healing (possibly) to be able to (for once) sit in the same space and get full (or at least some!) support in what i’ve been trying to tell you for so long.

i asked Lotte if she would be interested in joining a meeting. she doesn’t know. but there’s a possibility that there would be more than one person there hurt by you at this meeting (from my point of view i don’t see why this wouldn’t be possible or “traumatizing” “harming” for you..) since we recognize the same harmful patterns in your behavior.

anyhow. thought it was Fucked Up of you to respond to this
“privately”, when i stated clearly in the original statement that
there was an agreement on passing this through other ppl / witnesses cause “seems complicated.. but emotionally it works a whole lot better than direct contact”

you still don’t get shit about your fucked up emotional and
controlling games. and i guess that’s why you would prefer not to have a “traumatizing” (poor man..) meeting with me. cause it might just be enlightening for you. and not possible to shamelessly continue your domination games pretending that you “just don’t have a clue”.


Milla

Oct 31, From Dani to me and the group >>

i also dont feel comfortable when you contact me and thats just what happened a few days ago…
the complaints about contacting other ppl come from the fact that i get replies from some of these ppl that they feel USED, cause you dont care about anything or anybody apart from “milking” (your wonderful term applied to me from before) them for some “solidarity” and i feel STALKED, cause you flooded my mailbox, facebook account and have a regular news feed on my life over your blog not to mention try to systematically map my friends for “support”
so yes i dont own them you can do as you feel like, but i can
say: LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!

Oct 31, From Dani to me and the group >>

Kelly the person who sent this mail to me said she doesnt want to talk to you anymore and the other recipient was Bert and not the group… i dont know about the group, but Bert was very clear: he is not interested in having a mediated meeting with only one person agreeing and having a clear aim with it… so your solution is what happened many times before: shout at me that im an asshole for not listening to you… maybe the difference being: “with support”
i can only tell you what i told you before: i dont want to talk to an obssesed, alcoholic stalker, who thinks i should go kill myself, writes sarcastic messages in my name, uses my friends, sexually abuses me, wants to take out lifelong traumas on me and shits on my feelings….
yes this was all traumatizing to me you FUCKING, INSENSITIVE; ASS…
go and take the “Milla-drama” elsewhere…


d

Oct 31, From me to Dani and the group >>

hello men,

since i have a problem with sexually abusive behaviors

i would like to be confronted on this (and i’m seriously wondering
what this stop male violence group is about?!)

maybe the men would like to support dani in confronting the oppressive
women around her?

this is not a “milla” drama.
this is STILL about you not wanting to deal with your oppressive
behaviors in relation to women.

if there’s any man from the group who does not feel this is a
“private” matter. “between dani and me”. please do, contact me.

i wouldn’t mind support. in feeling alone with this. (and yes. i fully
admit to having been aggressive towards you dani. i wish this could go
both ways some time. accountability. not giving me the chance to
confront you in a way i possibly would feel supported and not totally
trashed by you and your blatant display male supremacist behaviors.)

and i stick with this message:
you are harming the women you are with. it’s not only in my head. get that.


Milla

Oct 31, From me to Dani and the group >>

hello men,

i missed the first message. just read the second one.

like. cool that you are sharing this with the group, dani. cause
before it was only you and me.

and i felt really alone with this. and i still do. and i drink. and i walk the streets and wonder why the fuck there’s no community support in this. i wonder why the fuck you should be left unchallenged and to deal with your supremacist behaviors (that you don’t even recognize but in a lot of cases ‘reverse’) “by yourself”.

you have no idea how isolated i’ve felt. you have no idea what that isolation does to a woman. a woman emotionally depedent and in love.
(i repeat. it’s not only me. you do this to all of us.) you encouraged me first when i was challenging you on your behaviors in intimate relations to contact your other partners that they are all okay with you and see you as a loving caring person. and when i did. and when i got support in not being totally crazy with my perception and my experiences with you. then you say i’m harming your friends. (the friends you’ve repeatedly said you don’t have. so i don’t know who you are referring to)

yeah. sure you would love for me to be the type who would turn this all inside and end up hating myself. but no. i get aggressive. and fucked up. and act out.

you are not an innocent victim in this.

i’m a woman capable of articulating the (your) abuse. and you should hear me out.

milla

Oct 31, From me to Dani and the group >>

hello Men,

since i don’t know if you will read through dani’s answers to the questions i had, i thought i could highlight the essence of – they way i’ve gotten to understand – dani’s perception and practice of anti-sexism:

>>

Dániel Vázsonyi, Oct 30 2009:

“i dont care if you feel safe and i dont want to hear how you feel
about anything i did”

>>

something to deal with?

i’m sick shit of manipulation. and no fucking support. this guy broke
me down emotionally/psychologically. i don’t know if this group is
just like these misogynist men’s groups in finland that just sit and
complain about how oppressed men are by women. and especially feminist
women being into this “man hatred” and dominating men. [from dani’s
point of view, this is what it sounds like to me at least.]

i would like to hear from the group if you have a policy with how you
deal with abusive behaviors from the people in your group. and how
come dani thinks this group is so great — if she just gets support
in feeling sorry for herself, and continuing abusing women (i repeat:
not only me.)

milla


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