Male privilege, Intimate Violence, Accountability

by Cunt Incognita (Fisse in Denmark)

In the picture: Dániel Vázsonyi silently sulking on a bench in front of a sexist monument. In a patriarchal society full of phallic symbols, it's easy to remember who's in charge. Being equiped with a penis makes it easy to stay clear of accountability.

Men have the privilege to stay silent and sulk, while others fight their battles for them, not caring whether there’s any reason for the battle or not in the first place. A man has spoken, and that means that the Truth has been told. Sexist knee-jerk reactions to pity and protect the man and vilify any woman daring to speak a different Truth, keep us stuck in a place where men as a group can systematically abuse (beat, rape, murder, suppress and oppress) women without taking any accountability for it.

The ultimate blame will always be found in the woman stupid (or brave?) enough to  speak up and fight back.

This blog post is written as a response to Pre Kaarina writing on my facebook that

“I think it’s pretty hypocritical to direct Daniel to male violence group when you have raped him. I suggest you stop stalking him.”

I got pretty shook up by this, since I’ve for a long time have tried to get a sensible talk with Dani about her own sexually abusive behaviors and psychological, emotional power games that she performs in intimate relations. For a fair amount of time I’ve desperately tried to confront the guy on severly damaging sexist behaviors. And now this: “Rape?”

The talk continued some on facebook, and after I deleted the ‘friend’ connection with Pre Kaarina, the discussion continued in the comment section of this blog post:

https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/fuck-off-not-taking-this-shit-anymore/#comments

In the discussion, two comments originating from Dani came out. Pre Kaarina wrote:

“Dani has said this: “saying that she shits on my feelings, forcing me to physically please her with emotional pressure (it happened in Vienna when we were supposed to have a “clearing up meeting”… she forced me to sleep with her… she said she doesnt care if its out of whatever feeling she has a right to that… then she forcibly kissed me and wanted to sleep with me saying later that she noticed how much i didnt want it from my body language, but her first question was “why cant i make up my mind?” like its my fault”.

This sounds like truth to me, judging from your abrasive behavior in driving people to admit they are sexist (which everyone knows even without such harsh measures).”

and this..

“Dani said he did not use the word “rape” and said: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”
OK, I accept. I think we are in agreement, you are guilty of sexual harassment, but no real rape, if that conforts you.”

and Pre Kaarina wrote..

“When Milla is displaying the same behavior towards Dani as in this very writing, shouting obscene-this, obscene-that in all caps, how probable it is that she says something like “I shit on your feelings”. I think that is exactly what happened. Her coercion was doubtly physical, but emotional, abusive speech.”

She also said this

“The word “rape” is mine. He said that you have forced him to sex when he didn’t want to and sexually harassed him and you two have discussed about this issue already.
He does admit the strangling, though, and some other nasties from his side, so he isn’t totally innocent, either. I did not expect to, we all share sexist and misogynistic behaviors.”

My reaction and version:

Dani has never talked with me about me forcing her to sleep with me. This is a lie.

I would like to have a better description of what Dani is talking about. Describing the situation in detail instead of just giving vague hints and indications that I find are being an untruthful reconstruction of what really occurred.

Pre Kaarina is saying that I’ve used abusive and coercive language in order to get physical intimacy. This is something that I also would say to be a lie.

What happened with the ‘forced’ kissing:

Dani and I were lying close, fully clothed. I asked if we could kiss. She said yes. When I came close with my face to hers, she pouted her lips. And we kissed. We kissed like that a few times. And then I tried to kiss with open mouth. At this point she opened her mouth wide open. I tried this twice. And then I teasingly said that she should make up her mind, whether she wants it or not.

This we talked about later on. I was the one saying that it wasn’t okay for me to do that, and that it was clear from her opening her mouth, that she didn’t want to, that a verbal “no” was not necessary, so it was fucked up and abusive of me to even try.

So. About the forced kissing. I asked for consent. She said yes. I then went over her boundaries. But the initial kisses were not “forced”. Neither through coercive language nor through physical force. I find it perfectly understandable that we say yes to things that we regret later on, (or even in the moment). But there was no indication whatsoever on her side before opening her mouth, that would give any hints to me about not wanting to kiss. So me kissing her I see nothing weird or “forced” in. Me trying to kiss her with an open mouth – was a clear boundary violation.

About the ‘forced’ sleeping. Or as Dani puts it when speaking with Pre Kaarina: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”

I never tried to have intercourse [neither initiate an elaborate making out session] with Dani. So this is also a lie. What happened was the kissing thing. [Which I do understand was wrong, and I own that, and I can repeat apologizing for that or do whatever necessary in order for her to feel better about it, if there would be any way to make it better.] Apart from that – there was Nothing. We held one another. And had spent a lot of time talking about what we wanted in life and what we didn’t want. And getting to a conclusion where the only thing we would have in common would be to deal with the sexism within the Morze infoshop collective in Budapest [something that she later on worked hard on evading]. I was facing the same open raw sexist despise from that place as from the people circling around the social centre project in Helsinki. The same kind of cultish exclusionary unlistening dismissive behaviors.

Before meeting up in Vienna, I had been reading the Everyday Male Chauvinism text.

[click on the third link in this blog post to get there: https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/male-pattern-violence-im-sick-of-it/]

And I had asked Dani to read it too. I had expressed wishes of talking this text through. [She said she could recognize herself in it.] I was completely exhausted, and it was difficult to push for this important talk to happen. And Dani still had a lot of emotional power over me at that time, so it was easy for her to avoid a real talk on the power relations between us. [Our common history of her open display of mental problems – me caring for her. Dealing with her sexism. Being exposed to really sexually abusive situations. Mind games. Emotional dependency. All these things that had happened in the past. The fear of the future. The fear of not being loved. All that.]

As I’ve stated before. I was very much in love. And it was difficult for me to have an objective mind in relation to the relation I was having with Dani. I’m really badly affected by sexism. Very sensitive to it. And somehow all the alarm systems were switched off for the sake of the vague promise of ‘love’. I had turned into a heterosexual Believer. Watching Dani abusing women all over the place, and at the same time believing that she was really “trying” and “wanting” to work on it.

Once again. The story that I’m sticking by about what happened in Vienna.

1. I did not coerce Dani to sleep with me. Neither verbally nor by physical “attempts” as she put it.

2. I did not try to initiate intercourse or any elaborate sex act or making out session with her. [There was the kissing. Yes. But Nothing Else.]

3. I did not in Vienna say that “I shit on your feelings” and then forced her to do anything of a physical nature.

4. There was never any situation in Vienna where I said I was “entitled to physical intimacy” with Dani and then forcing myself on her.

5. I asked her to hug me once [non-sexual context. at least for me.] when I was crying. And said that I would like to have a hug, even if it would be out of pity. Dani has openly said that she has a lack of empathy towards the persons she oppresses. She turns cold and distant, a form of despise for the ones who love her, getting abused by her. [Maybe it’s an extended self-hatred coming out in intimate love relations. Dunno. That’s just me doing kitchen psychology.] But it’s a fact that the man has told me that she has no empathy for the persons she hurts.

6. I was also drinking in Vienna. Apart from freaking out in general about the general fucked up situation I was in. I remember being very aggressive towards Dani. And having fuzzy memories. I remember dealing with her sexist comments and statements. Her avoiding to deal with the Everyday Male Chauvinism text. [an important text in relation to her way of treating intimate partners.] The drinking is something I take full responsibility for. And will change.

7. I have every right in the world to try to confront a person who’s repeatedly lied to me. Who is lying to persons I know about me coercing her into sleeping with me. Saying that I’ve been using verbal and emotional coercion. Indicating that I’ve attempted to rape her. Saying that I do not give a shit about her feelings in relation to that. This is a complete and utter lie. Dani has told me that she doesn’t care about how I’ve been affected by the abuse that she’s exposed me to, and that she doesn’t care to talk it through, or to try to arrange a safe setting for me to talk with her about these things. She’s told me openly she doesn’t care. She’s showed with her actions that she doesn’t care about the harm she does. She’s repeatedly lied to me about fixing these things. She also has a repeated pattern on being blind to her power position in intimate relations. Usually blaming the women for why the relation is not working. Saying that it has something to do with how we grow up to be submissive creatures in this society and have all this internalized self-hatred going for us. She paints herself as the perfect psychologist, who will be able to fix all our self-hating problems. Trying to push away the fact, that when we are exposed to her abusive behaviors, we’re responding in perfectly normal fucked up ways: Anger, Sadness, Depression, Self-hatred, Aggression, Drinking, Bullimia … Leaving her. Normal. And completely in perfect correlation to what we’ve experienced in relaiton to our un-equal connection with Dani. Not as Dani put it:

“i dont want to talk to an obssesed, alcoholic stalker, who thinks i should go kill myself, writes sarcastic messages in my name, uses my friends, sexually abuses me, wants to take out lifelong traumas on me and shits on my feelings….
yes this was all traumatizing to me you FUCKING, INSENSITIVE; ASS…”

In relation to sexually abusive behaviors I do absolutely care about how Dani felt about that. And I also care about the traumatizing acts and situations that she’s put me through. This is not about “lifelong traumas” that I’m trying to “take out on” Dani. I’m trying to get to a place where I would be able to hear to my face, the things that I’ve heard coming through others mouths on what Dani has said about me and our relation.

And some of the statements I would say would be true in what Dani is saying. Me being alcoholic. Obsessed (with getting justice, fair play). And yes. Lately I’ve reached the state where I just go openly aggressive. I’ve wished her ‘dead’. I’ve been reacting the same to the whole community around her. And yet: I feel I’m totally entitled to be able to talk these things through. Not just have to put up with hearing how ‘privileged’ I am, and how I’m ‘pushing Dani into corners’. Dani is responsible for her own actions. She’s responsible for standing naked right in front of me, me sitting on the floor leaning against the wall [me in a corner?], she shaking her hair, having come out from the shower. Just looking at me. Saying nothing. Touching her penis. She’s responsible for dealing with these things. Not just saying: “I don’t care how you feel about this” and then having persons like Pre Kaarina going nuts on me, saying how I should just leave Dani alone and start reflecting on my own behaviors.

How can I reflect on my own behaviors if it’s only in Dani’s fantasy world that we’ve actually talked these things through? In my reality this simply never happened: We never talked about me “forcing to sleep with her”, not ‘raping’, but “making physical attempts”. We never talked about this.

I think it’s completely sick that Pre Kaarina is taking it upon herself to protect Dani in this, allowing her to keep safe from any form of accountability. Continuing the abusive behaviors with more women, because unfortunately, the system works in favor of the reality of the dominant culture – in favor of the [traumatized suppressed] assholes who oppress (and lie about it) and — Get Away With It.

Thank you Pre Kaarina for passing on the quotes from Dani. Without this I wouldn’t have known any of this was going on. I’m absolutely not happy with the way you are dealing with this. Going for a blaming accusational approach instead of just asking me: “Dani said this. What do you think about that?”

Instead you went full on with Dani’s reality. A reality that I claim to a large extent consists of pure distortion and lies. And I figure just as Pre Kaarina and myself being accountable for what we do and say. So should Dani. In a fair and equal society, Dani should be held accountable for what she does and says. Not have masses of people running to her rescue. [Rescuing her from what? Possibly finally Dealing with her Shit?]

I’ve understood from some private correspondance and then a comment being posted in the afore mentioned blog post comment section discussion, that Pre Kaarina is interested in continuing this discussion. Here is a spot on the forum, open for anybody to read, if you want to take part in the discussion you need to sign up.

To see where this “brawl” leads. CLICK HERE:

http://sosiaalikeskus.forumotion.com/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability-f26/

The reason why I choose to make it on the forum is that the comments on the blog posts do not necessarily always end up in the right order, so it will be easier to read the discussion afterwards for anybody interested.

I take the topic of intimate violence and accountability within that sphere of power relations seriously. Hopefully this will lead to something constructive in the end.

I appreciate that Pre Kaarina is willing to speak her point of view in public, since it seems that a lot of people around Dani are refusing both private and public talks on this.

FUCK OFF! Not taking this shit anymore.

by Milla (Vittu in Salo) [she=he]

manipulative_lying_bastard

Dániel Vázsonyi. A manipulative lying bastard.

I just lost a friend again. It’s a part of the normal everyday life. Lines drawn according to where emotions go and where there’s sensitivity and solidarity.

Dániel Vázsonyi was a guy who came to Finland and made serious efforts to start an intimate relation with me. She managed to get under my skin. And it took quite some time, and several conversations with other intimate partners, before i realized how damaging her way of connecting with me was.

It’s so sick. I was just called a rapist by Stacy – Pre Kaarina on facebook the other day. I got in shock. Just crying and shaking. There seems to be no way of bridging that gap. No way of reaching into the reality of the other. And i need to take care of myself. So i lost two contacts. Petra and Stacy are both out of my life. There’s no space to talk of Dani’s abuse in their world. Instead it’s “you should stop stalking” and “you sexually abused” and “take a look at yourself”. And Petra saying to my face, in a really aggressive way, last time we met: “I thought you wanted Dani to fuck you really hard this summer”. Not bothering to explain what she meant by that.

The only thing i can say at the moment is. FUCK OFF! all you people who are there protecting seriously abusive men. FUCK OFF! all of you who refuse to support women who’ve been in intimate relations and been emotionally and psychologically abused. FUCK OFF! all you fucking horrible people who have no sensitivity whatsoever, but the only thing you can do is to BLAME. Fuck off.

Stacy said this about the thing she called me raping Dani:

“Dani has said this: “saying that she shits on my feelings, forcing me to physically please her with emotional pressure (it happened in Vienna when we were supposed to have a “clearing up meeting”… she forced me to sleep with her… she said she doesnt care if its out of whatever feeling she has a right to that… then she forcibly kissed me and wanted to sleep with me saying later that she noticed how much i didnt want it from my body language, but her first question was “why cant i make up my mind?” like its my fault”.

This sounds like truth to me, judging from your abrasive behavior in driving people to admit they are sexist (which everyone knows even without such harsh measures).”

I’m not going to live with this shit in my life anymore. Dani is lying. I never forced her to sleep with me. I begged her for a hug once when I was crying. But I never begged or coerced her to sleep with me. [And “sleeping with” in this case means: fully clothed holding each other but not stroking or moving. The day after we were close as well. Holding one another. Dani was also getting creative and playful, moving around on all four. I held on to her like a koala baby. I said i could do the same to her. And she said yes. But i didn’t. At one moment when we were lying close, i felt that Dani had a hard on (we also talked about it), and i moved away (something i did by myself, not something that Dani asked for), so we didn’t have contact in that specific area, still lying close.] And i didn’t kiss her. [added later on: that yes. i asked to kiss with dani. and she pouted her mouth. and we kissed “pouted mouth to pouted mouth”, but i tried to kiss her in another way, and then she opened her mouth open wide. she didn’t say a verbal “no”, but her face was saying it all – keeping her mouth wide open in order not to kiss. it was completely fucked up of me to try to kiss with her. and i totally own that. so me saying “i didn’t kiss her” is not telling the truth – saying that would be a lie.] This IS A GUY WHO WENT ONLINE. TALKING WITH HAJNI ON THE INTERNET WHEN DANI AND I WERE NAKED TOUCHING OURSELVES. DANI ENGAGED ME AND HAJNI IN THIS SITUATION WITHOUT ASKING NEITHER ONE OF US IF WE WANTED THIS. [i felt severely damaged by this later on.]

THIS IS A GUY WHO ASKED ME IF WE SHOULD ASK DANA TO SLEEP WITH US TO “NOT MAKE HER FEEL LEFT OUT” WHEN DANA WAS VISITING IN BUDAPEST. [i felt severely damaged by this later on.]

THIS IS THE GUY WHO JUMPED UP BEHIND ME WITH A BIG SMILE ON HER FACE WHEN I WAS DOING ASTANGA JOGA, AND PUT HER CROTCH AGAINST MY BEHIND. NOT ASKING ME IF I WOULD BE OKAY WITH THAT. [i felt severely degraded and damaged by this later on.]

THIS IS THE GUY WHO STOOD IN FRONT OF ME. NAKED. NOT SAYING ONE WORD. JUST LOOKING AT ME. TOUCHING HER PENIS. [i felt severely damaged by this later on.]

THIS IS THE GUY WHO STARTED BEING NAKED IN FRONT OF ME, AND *THEN* ASKED ME IF IT IS ‘OKAY’. [i felt manipulated and damaged by this later on.]

THIS IS THE GUY WHO WAS STANDING NAKED IN FRONT OF ANOTHER WOMAN, HAVING AN ARGUMENT WITH HER, AND WHEN SHE SAID SHE FELT UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT DANI BEING NAKED, THE GUY IS STILL STANDING WITH NO CLOTHES ON, SAYING THAT THIS WOMAN IS “NOT LIBERATED” ENOUGH.

THIS IS THE GUY… and so on and on and on and on..

this is the guy who doesn’t want to talk about her own sexist behaviors [added later on: sure. she can verbally and openly admit that she’s sexist. but she doesn’t care about how women feel about the abuse she’s exposed us to or work on changing it. her main priority is to maintain control over her power to define reality, and forcibly change and take over the reality of the one she’s with.] this is the guy who lies about situations that have happened.

[added later on: this is a person i was deeply in love with. this is a person i’m still in love with. this is a person i trusted – and yet, never felt safe with. this is a person i loved. This Is A Person I Loved.]

this is what happened in Vienna.

https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/a-working-relation-magyar/

and Dani never cared about the common deal we had. about dealing with sexism. the next post is about the “forced kissing”. [i did not kiss her. [apart from the “pouted mouth to pouted mouth” – and understanding how things were today, i get it that she didn’t want to do that either. it was wrong of me to write that “i did not kiss her”. to write that is to lie about what really happened.] and i was the one telling her that she didn’t need to tell me with words that she didn’t want to. cause i noticed it in her body language. she opened her mouth wide open when i approached her with my face. so we were lying close. but she didn’t want to kiss. that simple and easy. i tried twice. and i had a nasty teasing attitude about it. but i told her afterwards that this wasn’t okay.]

https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/crazy-sick-weird/

FUCK ALL OF YOU FOR NOT CARING! FUCK YOU ALL WHO DO NOT GIVE A SHIT TO SUPPORT A WOMAN IN MY SITUATION!! FUCK OFF AND DIE!!!

I’M NOT TAKING THIS SHIT ANYMORE. YOU CAN ALL GO TO HELL.

NO STACY. DANI NEVER TALKED WITH ME ABOUT HAVING COERCED HER INTO SLEEPING WITH ME. DANI NEVER “CLEARED THESE THINGS OUT”.

DANI IS A FUCKING MALE CHAUVINIST BASTARD WHO REFUSES TO TAKE ANY ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HER ABUSIVE WAYS IN INTIMATE RELATIONS. AND SHE CONTINUES ABUSING WOMEN!

And just as it usually works with intimate relations. You, Stacy, have no fucking idea what it’s like being in a relation with Dani. Cause there’s a whole different pattern going on with women that Dani chooses to hold tight, and the ones that there’s a friendship with.

So. Seriously Fuck You Stacy. And hope that you learn something for the next time someone you know has been abused in an intimate relation.

milla_stalking

This message got me into shock. Shaking and crying.

added on Dec 4, 2009:

The purpose of a meeting – Ending misogyny (dani)

by Milla (close enough to Finland, in the harbor of Tallinn, not knowing what “cunt” is in Estonian)

[ Dániel Vázsonyi’s reply to the letter below, on November 3, 2009: “once again (cause what you said is the same thing in 6 more letters posted on the net in 3 different places): LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!” ]

misogyny_hard_to_spell

This is an open letter which I share here, with Dani, and with the men’s group, for the simple reason that I’ve been ignored and fairly unsupported in this for so long, so emotionally it works better this way.

Hello Dani,

the reason for me to have a meeting with you at the current moment, is to discuss the same things that you brought up in one of your replies:

“the purpose for meeting up would be to prevent any harm that could be caused IN THE FUTURE… hence setting boundaries (which wouldnt work, cause you want me to care)”

i figure i understand this sentense a bit different than you. since we have a different perspective on things. i assume from your other correspondence that you are talking about boundaries that we would have in relation to one another (you and me). i would like to interpret this in the wider context that i’ve been trying to point out to you: your blatant lack of boundaries when it comes to the misogynistic behaviors that you have in relation to the women that you keep close (or at a distance – depending on what power trick works best at the moment in order to maintain the power imbalance).

what i’m talking here is physical, emotional, psychological, and sexualized violence and coercion. a well documented display of lies and deception. open refusal to talk through the behaviors described in Everyday Male Chauvinism – which you, my friend, are a text book example of. and leading more women down that road of manipulation and destruction of self-worth into dependency, a trip you’ve gone on many times before. in spite of my clear alerts: open refusal on your side to give new or previous partners any clues to what goes wrong in your relations apart from your own interpretations (not at all related to the Everyday Male Chauvinism text) eagerly pushed on us by you.

Your refusal to hear me out on this. Your continuation of using the same methods described in EMC without reflecting or breaking with them, in spite of at least two women having stated clearly that they have been deeply harmed by you – me being one of them, and also telling you i can explain how, when and why.

This turns you from a case of ‘regular sexist guy’ to:

Misogynist.

So.This takes me back to the quote, and what the purpose of a meeting would be on my side.

“the purpose for meeting up would be to prevent any harm that could be caused IN THE FUTURE… hence setting boundaries (which wouldnt work, cause you want me to care)”

I don’t know if you are so deeply and severely damaged by this society that you really don’t care about the harm you cause. But at least i thought it could be worth a try.

The other reason for me to have a meeting like this is that i’m really curious if there are ways for a woman like myself, with my experiences, in my situation, to sit in the same room with a non-caring sexist guy and still not end up hurt. I’ve heard that Bert is supposed to be good at these things, so i figured it could be worth a try.

What’s your response to this Dani?

milla