The purpose of a meeting – Ending misogyny (dani)

by Milla (close enough to Finland, in the harbor of Tallinn, not knowing what “cunt” is in Estonian)

[ Dániel Vázsonyi’s reply to the letter below, on November 3, 2009: “once again (cause what you said is the same thing in 6 more letters posted on the net in 3 different places): LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!” ]

misogyny_hard_to_spell

This is an open letter which I share here, with Dani, and with the men’s group, for the simple reason that I’ve been ignored and fairly unsupported in this for so long, so emotionally it works better this way.

Hello Dani,

the reason for me to have a meeting with you at the current moment, is to discuss the same things that you brought up in one of your replies:

“the purpose for meeting up would be to prevent any harm that could be caused IN THE FUTURE… hence setting boundaries (which wouldnt work, cause you want me to care)”

i figure i understand this sentense a bit different than you. since we have a different perspective on things. i assume from your other correspondence that you are talking about boundaries that we would have in relation to one another (you and me). i would like to interpret this in the wider context that i’ve been trying to point out to you: your blatant lack of boundaries when it comes to the misogynistic behaviors that you have in relation to the women that you keep close (or at a distance – depending on what power trick works best at the moment in order to maintain the power imbalance).

what i’m talking here is physical, emotional, psychological, and sexualized violence and coercion. a well documented display of lies and deception. open refusal to talk through the behaviors described in Everyday Male Chauvinism – which you, my friend, are a text book example of. and leading more women down that road of manipulation and destruction of self-worth into dependency, a trip you’ve gone on many times before. in spite of my clear alerts: open refusal on your side to give new or previous partners any clues to what goes wrong in your relations apart from your own interpretations (not at all related to the Everyday Male Chauvinism text) eagerly pushed on us by you.

Your refusal to hear me out on this. Your continuation of using the same methods described in EMC without reflecting or breaking with them, in spite of at least two women having stated clearly that they have been deeply harmed by you – me being one of them, and also telling you i can explain how, when and why.

This turns you from a case of ‘regular sexist guy’ to:

Misogynist.

So.This takes me back to the quote, and what the purpose of a meeting would be on my side.

“the purpose for meeting up would be to prevent any harm that could be caused IN THE FUTURE… hence setting boundaries (which wouldnt work, cause you want me to care)”

I don’t know if you are so deeply and severely damaged by this society that you really don’t care about the harm you cause. But at least i thought it could be worth a try.

The other reason for me to have a meeting like this is that i’m really curious if there are ways for a woman like myself, with my experiences, in my situation, to sit in the same room with a non-caring sexist guy and still not end up hurt. I’ve heard that Bert is supposed to be good at these things, so i figured it could be worth a try.

What’s your response to this Dani?

milla

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21 Responses

  1. Milla,

    I am concerned for you, dealing with this guy who won’t own his own male supremacist shit.

    Is there a way to have him called to account by me? Without putting you at more risk?

    Please know that I support your efforts, and I can and will speak out against his misogyny in ways that are helpful to you, if you’d like.

    • hello Julian,

      i choose to respond here in order to be transparent. you could write to Dani directly (she already posted her email herself on this blog)
      vazsonyi.daniel@gmail.com

      she’s also on facebook, so you could contact her there as well.

      then you could also support me (in not waisting more of my energy on this issue) in asking the men’s group in Budapest – that Dani is taking part of – what their policy / practice is on supporting women in confronting men in their group:
      info@stop-ferfieroszak.hu

      you could introduce yourself to the group. it’s possible you could find friends there. and: just freely say anything what comes to mind.

      take care
      ❤ milla

  2. I will do both of those things, Milla. Right now.

  3. sexist guys suck.

  4. I wrote to Dani and this was his reply:

    Dániel Vázsonyi
    to me

    show details 12:33 PM (7 hours ago)

    hi Julian!

    ive been asked this question a hundred times and Milla posted my most recent reply to it on her blog…
    the answer to you is of course not the same… it goes as follows:
    i dont want to talk to Milla about anything if not strictly necessary and it tires me really much having to talk about this shit all the time

    d

  5. My reply to Dani:

    Dániel,

    I just want to be clear about what you are saying, because I’m not sure I understand what you wrote.

    Are you saying you’re tired of dealing with the dynamics between you and Milla (“this shit”) all the time (including your past together), or are you saying you’re tired of dealing with being called out on sexist behaviors (“the shit”) all the time, or neither?

    Hoping you can clarify that for me.

    Thanks!

    Julian

  6. Dani’s reply:

    Dániel Vázsonyi
    to me

    Nov 4 (3 days ago)

    about the first thing i feel more than tiredness, the second thing fits, but in a different way than you might think:
    its tiring to explain about your life to complete strangers, especially when you have no intention to…

    d

  7. The reply from a member of the Budapest group:

    Nov 6 (2 days ago)
    Dear Julian,

    Thank you for your interest in the group. Generally speaking the group is for men who want to critically examine and change women’s subordination in their own lives and/or on a societal level.

    We have the following activities:

    1. There is a self-knowledge or awareness raising group for men who want to look at and change their behaviours towards women and other men from a feminist perspective. We meet approximately every 6 weeks.
    2. Some members from the above group comprises an activist group, who take part in various forums and demosntrations (a forum on prostitution, international wome’s day, 16 action days against VAW), and recently we have moved into book publishing.
    3. As you have seen we have an information website.
    4. We have a film club wehere we watch films and analyse them from a gender-perspective.
    5. We have an information hotline for men who want to base their relationships with women and other men on equality.

    Regards,

    Gábor

  8. My reply:

    Nov 6 (1 day ago)
    Dear Gábor,

    Thanks for that information about your group, and please do send me any URLs where your work, individually or as a group, exists, including documentation of your actions. Very cool!

    This is a problem I am having, and I’m wondering if it makes sense for us to discuss it in email. Over the 25 years I’ve been doing radical profeminist work, I’ve noticed that no matter how much men are willing to change their sexist attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, one thing men (with few exceptions) will do is make sure they are directly accountable to feminist women, to women whose views the men are trying to take on and carry within themselves. What this means interpersonally, is that when a man in a group such as yours does sexist stuff to a woman he’s involved with, he can “duck out” and avoid confrontation, avoid accountability, because that is one of the male entitlements men have that we are least willing to give up. (Having violating visual access to women is another.)

    Does your group have a stated policy on how the male members will be accountable to the women in their lives who they harm with sexist behavior?

    Thanks for reading and replying.

    Good luck to you.

    Julian

  9. (I have not yet heard back from Gábor.)

  10. Julian
    maybe Gábor is already aware of Milla’s mind games and refuses to play?

    maybe she is playing a mind game on you? When have you met Milla?

  11. And when have you EVER known that to be “the whole story”?

    Dani is clearly ducking out of being accountable here. I have no idea what all the dynamics between them were. But I know men well enough to know when we are taking advantage of our privileges. And he’s doing that now.

    Where are the men who will hold him to account. He knows he’s done some sexist shit. But without men to whom he IS accountable calling him out on it, he can just disappear and leave the woman to appear to be the one with all the problems.

    One of women’s biggest problems, in my experience, is men not taking responsibility for our own behavior, and blaming women for what we do that harms women.

  12. Julian
    you have not answered my question. When have you met Milla?

  13. I know Milla through feminist political work going back years.

    And what does that have to do with Dani’s sexism?

  14. You know her how? In person, like you know Dani in person? It matters a lot for this discussion – as other threads should inform you.

  15. I do not know either Milla or Dani in person. I have never met them. Something about them living in Europe and me in the U.S. tends to create connections like this, you know?

    Milla and I have discussed several things. I find her to be an exceptionally honest person.

    We discuss, for example, her use of alcohol, the value of self-care.

    I think it is important to remember that two people can be abusive in various ways when knowing each other. For me to want Dani to be transparent on his sexism is not to say Milla was or is some kind of angel from heaven. But when does Dani come clean, and own his sexism? And if the condition for doing that–for men transparently and honestly owning what we do that is sexism, interpersonally and otherwise–is the woman having to never have behaved hurtfully to the man, then we obviously have a great way for men to never own up to what we do.

    Too often such conversations come down to bickering back and forth “Well, s/he did that to me first!!!!”

    I want Dani to simply own what he’s done that is sexist. That’s all. No excuses.

    Regarding Milla:
    I have never spoken to anyone ever about their use of alcohol and had the experience of them (her) being so honest, not in denial, not defensive, and completely open with me. She owns what she does, in my experience. She is honest about what she does.

    So I know her, yes. And I’ve never met her. I hope that honestly and completely answers your questions.

  16. ‘So I know her, yes. And I’ve never met her. I hope that honestly and completely answers your questions.’

    Yes, it does.

    It also explains why your comments seem so disconnected and clueless – clueless to how this person actually operates with people in real space, not cyberspace.

    There is a big difference between the two – but if you like, you can continue to pretend to have enough information from thousands of kilometers away to pass judgement on other people’s lives.

    • by Milla

      Hello Lesser Than = Greater Than.

      It’s so nice to be able and capable of saying openly: You are a sexist ass.

      How do you know me? From where? What did I do in the space/place where I was? How did you feel about it? And why did you feel that way about it?

      You are asking Julian, about who and how she knows me and Dani and — how about Yourself?

      How come you can say that Julian’s comments are disconnected and clueless (your cruel and clueless bastard).

      If you like to stay anonymous. Stalking this site. And writing mean and horrendously ignorant comments. Go ahead. Pass judgement from your safe IGNORANT corner in cyber space. Keep pretending.

      Coward.

      That’s what all you meanies writing shitty nasty comments on this blog are: Cowards.

  17. To .

    Re:
    “maybe Gábor is already aware of Milla’s mind games and refuses to play?”

    First, TO GABOR:
    Please tell me what your ethics are. You don’t have to “play games” to answer that question. I’ll email it to you in case you don’t want to publish the answer here. How do you know Milla and how do you know Dani? For how long? In what ways and capacities? What are the “profeminist ethics” of your group, and of you? What do you believe is and isn’t appropriate to do when a man is privately sexist, is also part of a profeminist action group, and is called out by a woman on his sexism? What is your group’s policy on that? Can you just copy and paste the policy? And also let me know where you, Gábor, stand on this issue? What do you believe men should do who are called out publicly on their sexism, or who are accused of being sexist or misogynistic by a woman in a public space?

    Do you think/feel a man has ANY responsibilities to her and to womankind? To feminism and to feminists?

    I await your replies.

    Back to you ,

    And what if I’m not into playing “games”? What if I’m asking a legitimate question and am curious to know why these males are not willing to be transparent, open, honest, and truthful?

    What ethics do you operate out of? What is your name? Where do you live? How do you know Milla, in detail? For how many years, in what contexts/locations/conditions?

    Were you and she emotionally intimate? Political colleagues? Both? Neither?

    Or is operating out of cowardly anonymity part of your “ethics”? If so, I think we know who the most dishonest and unaccountable person is here on this discussion thread, don’t we?

    I await your reply. You’ve had plenty to ask me. I’ve answered all your questions. Now will you play the “I don’t play those games” card, to duck out of being accountable and transparent?

    We’ll see, won’t we.

  18. I had typed the symbols for lesser than equals greater than, but they don’t show up. So the beginning of the comment above is supposed to read:

    To lesser than equals greater than.

    And after the section to Gábor, it ought to read:

    “Back to you, lesser than equals greater than”

    Just to be clear.

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