Male privilege, Intimate Violence, Accountability

by Cunt Incognita (Fisse in Denmark)

In the picture: Dániel Vázsonyi silently sulking on a bench in front of a sexist monument. In a patriarchal society full of phallic symbols, it's easy to remember who's in charge. Being equiped with a penis makes it easy to stay clear of accountability.

Men have the privilege to stay silent and sulk, while others fight their battles for them, not caring whether there’s any reason for the battle or not in the first place. A man has spoken, and that means that the Truth has been told. Sexist knee-jerk reactions to pity and protect the man and vilify any woman daring to speak a different Truth, keep us stuck in a place where men as a group can systematically abuse (beat, rape, murder, suppress and oppress) women without taking any accountability for it.

The ultimate blame will always be found in the woman stupid (or brave?) enough to  speak up and fight back.

This blog post is written as a response to Pre Kaarina writing on my facebook that

“I think it’s pretty hypocritical to direct Daniel to male violence group when you have raped him. I suggest you stop stalking him.”

I got pretty shook up by this, since I’ve for a long time have tried to get a sensible talk with Dani about her own sexually abusive behaviors and psychological, emotional power games that she performs in intimate relations. For a fair amount of time I’ve desperately tried to confront the guy on severly damaging sexist behaviors. And now this: “Rape?”

The talk continued some on facebook, and after I deleted the ‘friend’ connection with Pre Kaarina, the discussion continued in the comment section of this blog post:

https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/fuck-off-not-taking-this-shit-anymore/#comments

In the discussion, two comments originating from Dani came out. Pre Kaarina wrote:

“Dani has said this: “saying that she shits on my feelings, forcing me to physically please her with emotional pressure (it happened in Vienna when we were supposed to have a “clearing up meeting”… she forced me to sleep with her… she said she doesnt care if its out of whatever feeling she has a right to that… then she forcibly kissed me and wanted to sleep with me saying later that she noticed how much i didnt want it from my body language, but her first question was “why cant i make up my mind?” like its my fault”.

This sounds like truth to me, judging from your abrasive behavior in driving people to admit they are sexist (which everyone knows even without such harsh measures).”

and this..

“Dani said he did not use the word “rape” and said: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”
OK, I accept. I think we are in agreement, you are guilty of sexual harassment, but no real rape, if that conforts you.”

and Pre Kaarina wrote..

“When Milla is displaying the same behavior towards Dani as in this very writing, shouting obscene-this, obscene-that in all caps, how probable it is that she says something like “I shit on your feelings”. I think that is exactly what happened. Her coercion was doubtly physical, but emotional, abusive speech.”

She also said this

“The word “rape” is mine. He said that you have forced him to sex when he didn’t want to and sexually harassed him and you two have discussed about this issue already.
He does admit the strangling, though, and some other nasties from his side, so he isn’t totally innocent, either. I did not expect to, we all share sexist and misogynistic behaviors.”

My reaction and version:

Dani has never talked with me about me forcing her to sleep with me. This is a lie.

I would like to have a better description of what Dani is talking about. Describing the situation in detail instead of just giving vague hints and indications that I find are being an untruthful reconstruction of what really occurred.

Pre Kaarina is saying that I’ve used abusive and coercive language in order to get physical intimacy. This is something that I also would say to be a lie.

What happened with the ‘forced’ kissing:

Dani and I were lying close, fully clothed. I asked if we could kiss. She said yes. When I came close with my face to hers, she pouted her lips. And we kissed. We kissed like that a few times. And then I tried to kiss with open mouth. At this point she opened her mouth wide open. I tried this twice. And then I teasingly said that she should make up her mind, whether she wants it or not.

This we talked about later on. I was the one saying that it wasn’t okay for me to do that, and that it was clear from her opening her mouth, that she didn’t want to, that a verbal “no” was not necessary, so it was fucked up and abusive of me to even try.

So. About the forced kissing. I asked for consent. She said yes. I then went over her boundaries. But the initial kisses were not “forced”. Neither through coercive language nor through physical force. I find it perfectly understandable that we say yes to things that we regret later on, (or even in the moment). But there was no indication whatsoever on her side before opening her mouth, that would give any hints to me about not wanting to kiss. So me kissing her I see nothing weird or “forced” in. Me trying to kiss her with an open mouth – was a clear boundary violation.

About the ‘forced’ sleeping. Or as Dani puts it when speaking with Pre Kaarina: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”

I never tried to have intercourse [neither initiate an elaborate making out session] with Dani. So this is also a lie. What happened was the kissing thing. [Which I do understand was wrong, and I own that, and I can repeat apologizing for that or do whatever necessary in order for her to feel better about it, if there would be any way to make it better.] Apart from that – there was Nothing. We held one another. And had spent a lot of time talking about what we wanted in life and what we didn’t want. And getting to a conclusion where the only thing we would have in common would be to deal with the sexism within the Morze infoshop collective in Budapest [something that she later on worked hard on evading]. I was facing the same open raw sexist despise from that place as from the people circling around the social centre project in Helsinki. The same kind of cultish exclusionary unlistening dismissive behaviors.

Before meeting up in Vienna, I had been reading the Everyday Male Chauvinism text.

[click on the third link in this blog post to get there: https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/male-pattern-violence-im-sick-of-it/]

And I had asked Dani to read it too. I had expressed wishes of talking this text through. [She said she could recognize herself in it.] I was completely exhausted, and it was difficult to push for this important talk to happen. And Dani still had a lot of emotional power over me at that time, so it was easy for her to avoid a real talk on the power relations between us. [Our common history of her open display of mental problems – me caring for her. Dealing with her sexism. Being exposed to really sexually abusive situations. Mind games. Emotional dependency. All these things that had happened in the past. The fear of the future. The fear of not being loved. All that.]

As I’ve stated before. I was very much in love. And it was difficult for me to have an objective mind in relation to the relation I was having with Dani. I’m really badly affected by sexism. Very sensitive to it. And somehow all the alarm systems were switched off for the sake of the vague promise of ‘love’. I had turned into a heterosexual Believer. Watching Dani abusing women all over the place, and at the same time believing that she was really “trying” and “wanting” to work on it.

Once again. The story that I’m sticking by about what happened in Vienna.

1. I did not coerce Dani to sleep with me. Neither verbally nor by physical “attempts” as she put it.

2. I did not try to initiate intercourse or any elaborate sex act or making out session with her. [There was the kissing. Yes. But Nothing Else.]

3. I did not in Vienna say that “I shit on your feelings” and then forced her to do anything of a physical nature.

4. There was never any situation in Vienna where I said I was “entitled to physical intimacy” with Dani and then forcing myself on her.

5. I asked her to hug me once [non-sexual context. at least for me.] when I was crying. And said that I would like to have a hug, even if it would be out of pity. Dani has openly said that she has a lack of empathy towards the persons she oppresses. She turns cold and distant, a form of despise for the ones who love her, getting abused by her. [Maybe it’s an extended self-hatred coming out in intimate love relations. Dunno. That’s just me doing kitchen psychology.] But it’s a fact that the man has told me that she has no empathy for the persons she hurts.

6. I was also drinking in Vienna. Apart from freaking out in general about the general fucked up situation I was in. I remember being very aggressive towards Dani. And having fuzzy memories. I remember dealing with her sexist comments and statements. Her avoiding to deal with the Everyday Male Chauvinism text. [an important text in relation to her way of treating intimate partners.] The drinking is something I take full responsibility for. And will change.

7. I have every right in the world to try to confront a person who’s repeatedly lied to me. Who is lying to persons I know about me coercing her into sleeping with me. Saying that I’ve been using verbal and emotional coercion. Indicating that I’ve attempted to rape her. Saying that I do not give a shit about her feelings in relation to that. This is a complete and utter lie. Dani has told me that she doesn’t care about how I’ve been affected by the abuse that she’s exposed me to, and that she doesn’t care to talk it through, or to try to arrange a safe setting for me to talk with her about these things. She’s told me openly she doesn’t care. She’s showed with her actions that she doesn’t care about the harm she does. She’s repeatedly lied to me about fixing these things. She also has a repeated pattern on being blind to her power position in intimate relations. Usually blaming the women for why the relation is not working. Saying that it has something to do with how we grow up to be submissive creatures in this society and have all this internalized self-hatred going for us. She paints herself as the perfect psychologist, who will be able to fix all our self-hating problems. Trying to push away the fact, that when we are exposed to her abusive behaviors, we’re responding in perfectly normal fucked up ways: Anger, Sadness, Depression, Self-hatred, Aggression, Drinking, Bullimia … Leaving her. Normal. And completely in perfect correlation to what we’ve experienced in relaiton to our un-equal connection with Dani. Not as Dani put it:

“i dont want to talk to an obssesed, alcoholic stalker, who thinks i should go kill myself, writes sarcastic messages in my name, uses my friends, sexually abuses me, wants to take out lifelong traumas on me and shits on my feelings….
yes this was all traumatizing to me you FUCKING, INSENSITIVE; ASS…”

In relation to sexually abusive behaviors I do absolutely care about how Dani felt about that. And I also care about the traumatizing acts and situations that she’s put me through. This is not about “lifelong traumas” that I’m trying to “take out on” Dani. I’m trying to get to a place where I would be able to hear to my face, the things that I’ve heard coming through others mouths on what Dani has said about me and our relation.

And some of the statements I would say would be true in what Dani is saying. Me being alcoholic. Obsessed (with getting justice, fair play). And yes. Lately I’ve reached the state where I just go openly aggressive. I’ve wished her ‘dead’. I’ve been reacting the same to the whole community around her. And yet: I feel I’m totally entitled to be able to talk these things through. Not just have to put up with hearing how ‘privileged’ I am, and how I’m ‘pushing Dani into corners’. Dani is responsible for her own actions. She’s responsible for standing naked right in front of me, me sitting on the floor leaning against the wall [me in a corner?], she shaking her hair, having come out from the shower. Just looking at me. Saying nothing. Touching her penis. She’s responsible for dealing with these things. Not just saying: “I don’t care how you feel about this” and then having persons like Pre Kaarina going nuts on me, saying how I should just leave Dani alone and start reflecting on my own behaviors.

How can I reflect on my own behaviors if it’s only in Dani’s fantasy world that we’ve actually talked these things through? In my reality this simply never happened: We never talked about me “forcing to sleep with her”, not ‘raping’, but “making physical attempts”. We never talked about this.

I think it’s completely sick that Pre Kaarina is taking it upon herself to protect Dani in this, allowing her to keep safe from any form of accountability. Continuing the abusive behaviors with more women, because unfortunately, the system works in favor of the reality of the dominant culture – in favor of the [traumatized suppressed] assholes who oppress (and lie about it) and — Get Away With It.

Thank you Pre Kaarina for passing on the quotes from Dani. Without this I wouldn’t have known any of this was going on. I’m absolutely not happy with the way you are dealing with this. Going for a blaming accusational approach instead of just asking me: “Dani said this. What do you think about that?”

Instead you went full on with Dani’s reality. A reality that I claim to a large extent consists of pure distortion and lies. And I figure just as Pre Kaarina and myself being accountable for what we do and say. So should Dani. In a fair and equal society, Dani should be held accountable for what she does and says. Not have masses of people running to her rescue. [Rescuing her from what? Possibly finally Dealing with her Shit?]

I’ve understood from some private correspondance and then a comment being posted in the afore mentioned blog post comment section discussion, that Pre Kaarina is interested in continuing this discussion. Here is a spot on the forum, open for anybody to read, if you want to take part in the discussion you need to sign up.

To see where this “brawl” leads. CLICK HERE:

http://sosiaalikeskus.forumotion.com/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability-f26/

The reason why I choose to make it on the forum is that the comments on the blog posts do not necessarily always end up in the right order, so it will be easier to read the discussion afterwards for anybody interested.

I take the topic of intimate violence and accountability within that sphere of power relations seriously. Hopefully this will lead to something constructive in the end.

I appreciate that Pre Kaarina is willing to speak her point of view in public, since it seems that a lot of people around Dani are refusing both private and public talks on this.

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7 Responses

  1. In the previous post there was a discussion about your tactics.First you said that you didn’t have any, then you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done). Passed some time of silence and Milla broke silence for the first time, starting from where we left.

    I guess you lied, or how do you rationalize this recent development?

    You wrote a synopsis of the arguments made. Even though I do not agree with it 100%, IMO it is a good starting point.

    “Instead you went full on with Dani’s reality. A reality that I claim to a large extent consists of pure distortion and lies.”

    What does your reality consist of? I think your reality consists of starting a new attack right when you have been cornered by me, where you should retreat and think your tactics over.

    That is exactly the same way my alcoholic father worked. If you don’t like being called an alcoholic personality, how about narcissistic (even if it is a misleading one)? The Social Center is full of people paranoid about Nazis, MC gangs, eavesdropping police… what makes those people so interesting in their minds that aforementioned groups would bother. That lay insanity was below you, you had to be harassed by leading phallocrats, who just don’t happen to come all that clean in what comes to sexism.

    What makes you, Milla, so special? The males in Satama do not bother with me.

    “And I figure just as Pre Kaarina and myself being accountable for what we do and say. So should Dani. In a fair and equal society, Dani should be held accountable for what she does and says. Not have masses of people running to her rescue.”

    In a fair and equal society, you have betrayed contract of not stalking Dani. You are not a seeker of peace, but a trouble maker. You seek the pathological types and start a brawl with them, but unlike male, alcoholic bar brawlers, you don’t want to get dirty and whacked.

    • by Milla

      Hello Pre Kaarina,

      I just reposted your reply in the forum. To make it easier to follow the discussion for people not directly and continuously involved in it. [transparency]

      The replies in the comment sections tend to end up in the wrong order, making it difficult to understand any logic in the conversation.

      If you have any problems with understanding this decision, let me know. And I can try to explain this further. Or reconsider.

      The thread on the forum is open for anybody to read. I could also open it up in the same way that the comment sections work on the blog, that anybody can reply. So far it’s only possible for people who’ve signed into the forum to respond in the thread.

      RIght now I figure, it’s not so complicated to sign up – anybody can do it – so i didn’t bother to change that.

      So. I’m replying to your post here:
      http://sosiaalikeskus.forumotion.com/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability-f26/

      <<<<

      • by Milla

        writing on the comment thread. since my answers were fairly long on the forum.

        main thing for pre kaarina seems to be this.

        Pre Kaarina wrote:
        “you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done).”

        i would like for you to come up with a quote where i tell you these things.

        time for you to come up with some proof as well. im not the only one having to be accountable in this. i hope. it wouldnt be fair at least. but maybe you dont feel like being fair?

  2. by Milla

    fearing that Pre Kaarina dropped the discussion (cause usually there’s very quick and eager response.)

    (((((
    Pre Kaarina wrote:
    “you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done).”

    i wrote:
    “i would like for you to come up with a quote where i tell you these things.”
    )))))

    or:
    I guess you lied, or how do you rationalize this recent statement?

    ((((((
    Pre Kaarina wrote:
    In a fair and equal society, you have betrayed contract of not stalking Dani. You are not a seeker of peace, but a trouble maker.
    ))))))

    In a “fair and equal society” i have “betrayed” a contract..

    In a patriarchal society I have definitely broken and betrayed the gender contract between the sexes. I’m definitely and proudly (in spite of vilification and ridicule) trying to uproot the rotting and smelly status quo of society as we know it today.

    [Note: These last few comments will also be posted in the forum.]

    • by Milla

      and by checking the referrers to this blog i noticed this in finnish. where pre kaarina is complaining again about how she’s reliving her childhood traumas by having this Milla with her “double standards” over-reacting and throwing tantrums for nothing.

      says the woman who started her “peace making” mission by screaming “rape” and telling me to back the fuck off and stop complaining..

      if you know finnish, then you can read the whole thing here:
      http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/node/8649146

  3. […] rape charges made by a friend of Dani, apparently supported by Dani in verbally harassing me on the internet (i can show you some really nasty samples if you wish. this is not the worst stuff) https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability/ […]

  4. […] around, reassuring people that “this has already been discussed” between Daniel and I. No. This has never been “discussed”. Daniel is […]

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