Morze

by Milla

UNDER CONSTRUCTION:

quoting-maria2

How to exclude a radical feminist. The main plot:

In 2008 Maxigas met me at a camp in Greece. At an introduction circle I said: “I would like to meet strong personalities”. This was by Maxigas (a person whom I don’t know) interpreted as me wanting an ‘Ubermensch Unity’ and that I couldn’t care less about her, that I wouldn’t see her as a strong personality [I never said this, this was all happening in Maxigas mind], and this made her later compare me to a ‘rapist’, telling me that she would never forget these first words she heard me say.

Later Maxigas, as an admin of a mailing list, excluded a person bringing in criticism to how the camp in Greece had come together. I disagreed with how Maxigas had made this decision, saying that it would be fair to know the reasons why, and at least, for a person about to get excluded, to be told what behavior is unwanted, and give them a warning before kicking them out. Some voices on the list seemed to think that their opinions expressed, represented a “wide consensus”, while other voices were said to be “trolling” and “flaming”, and I tried to explain that I have a different idea of how consensus is practiced [make a proposal – clarifying questions – check objections and concerns – resolve the objections and concerns with the involvement of all] Not as in this case: One guy makes decisions for the rest without discussion or giving any indications on what’s about to happen.

In the beginning of 2009 I came to Budapest, and I wrote to Maxigas about meeting up and talk through this exclusion. Maxigas response was to call me “rapist” and also that she wouldn’t want to see me. She also informed of an open infoshop event that would take place where she and a guy called Vlanto – who had been recieving direct criticism on the mailing list mentioned before – would talk about the Greek riots. Maxigas said that she wouldn’t want me to come to the event. And was also saying that Vlanto would go crazy if I would go there.

I went to the event, since I hadn’t gotten any sensible reasons explained to me for why I shouldn’t [irrational fear of outspoken women is not a reason for me to deny myself equal access to public events].

Maxigas first words to me was “What are you doing here, I told you not to come!” And then both Vlanto and Maxigas went crazy, trying to talk me out of attending the event. The only reason Vlanto gave for not having me there was that she would cancel the whole thing, because she was feeling nervous with me around. Finally I agreed on leaving during the event, if the exclusion would be mentioned before the presentation started, and if I could talk with people interested in this after the event.

In front of 50 persons Maxigas and Vlanto then tried to exclude me without stating any clear reasons. Two persons protested against the exclusion. And I got to stay.

Side-plot 1:

Before going to Budapest I wrote to Hajni [a friend of Maxigas] (who I don’t know, but she knows Dani, who I’ve also been in contact with, and once she contacted me over this blog to talk about a case of sexual abuse within the scene). I asked her for contacts – feminists and other nice people I could meet with. Her response was that I shouldn’t come to Budapest or Hungary but go somewhere else. She said I would be banned immediately from the whole anarchist and activist scene if I came. And that I knew why – and that I shouldn’t pretend that I don’t know why. [I’m saying that this is a political exclusion concerning sexism and prejudice against people thinking and acting differently. For me it’s clear that this exclusion is about strong (patriarchal.. and probably class..) hierarchies within a group related to Morze infoshop activity – But it seems as if Hajni is not agreeing with this, so I still really don’t know what her reason for un-welcoming me to Budapest might be. Her fears and justfications for avoiding discussion on this don’t make sense to me.]

She and Maxigas are responsible for excluding me from another space, called the common flat. It’s been said that me writing about these conflicts from my perspective is talking ill of people (who are not willing to have a fair exchange happening on the exlusions, not even recognizing it as exclusions, but saying that it’s a violation of their personal boundaries when they are not willing to discuss their unfair behavior and I do). Excluding my point of view, by physically excluding me from spaces, is in my mind a very strong way of silencing people who think differently.

The other thing they are saying is that Nazis will come and burn the common flat if I write about it on the blog. And therefor I should be kept away from there.

Hajni has told the persons living there that I have posted the address of the place on this blog. This is not true.

Side-plot 2:

Maria feels strongly about the infoshop with surrounding activity. She’s the one in the quote calling me “sick mind” and what’s written by me on this blog “weird” and “distorted and biased”.

In spite of the continuous strong statements she keeps making on having me excluded from the Morze infoshop internal mailing list (and before even supporting a general exclusion). She still calls herself neutral in this conflict. And in spite of dismissing a discussion on internal hierarchies intiated by Dani on the list (after I had had long discussions about it with her). Her way of silencing the discussion is very authoritarian: My opinion of this being a political exclusion based on prejudice she dismisses with me having “mental problems”.

She’s also told Dani that she thought that this is a case of jealousy on my side somehow (it would be interesting in finding out how she thinks about this).

In any case this is a conflict that she sees as “personal” and that I therefor should accept being excluded.

Side-plot 3:

Dani (or Daniel) came to find out more about the situation I have with the social centre project in Helsinki, and started a relationship with me. Unfortunately she has sexually abusive and oppressive behaviors in intimate relations, and the love story was a weird, destructive mix of pressure from societal oppressive systems and bad coping mechanisms. Currently she’s joined a feminist separatist men’s group with focus on a critical view on their own male socialization, but has failed in dealing with what happened between us in a constructive way. Meaning: She still has problems with dealing with her own abusive and oppressive behaviors towards women in intimate relations. And I guess I’m annoying or scaring her by continuing in pointing that fact out.

I was hurt by our interaction, and I want her to take accountability for the behaviors that causes this hurt.

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7 Responses

  1. sweet

  2. This is exclusively your interpretation. You are obsessed with this idea and what happened to you in Budapest. You repeat the same things constantly. You do not respect anybody’s privacy. You act in authoritarian way trying to involve in the conflict other people who are not aware of it and do not want to get involved. You provoke. After your provocation succeeds and you get a response you do not like you chase the people with the words they addressed to you blaming them in the serious offense they made towards you. You call fascist people who disagree with you. You want to impose your will and vision on everyone you can reach. If a person who has positive attitude to you disagrees with some of your statements, you attack this person and call him/her an enemy for supporting the opinion you do not like.
    You do not forget and you do not forgive. Why do you expect others to treat you in a better way than you treat them?

    • by Milla

      Hello Maria 🙂 (just guessing it’s you, because of the conversations we’ve had, and also that you are quick to reply to anything I say with dislike).

      I guess you didn’t like the fact that I had “Maria called me mentally ill” written on my back at a meeting, and that one person asked you about it “This Maria? Really? Why did you do that?” And then we started a talk that I felt went fairly okay. (Don’t know how you felt about it)

      Your idea of me being ‘authoritarian’ because of sticking with a point of view and also making an effort to explain it to others… — you expressed to be authoritarian. While you yourself stick with another point of view (and it’s not ‘authoritarian’ of you to do that? and if so: why not?) which is that I should just be quiet and go away, and dismissing a real discussion on the criticism i have about hierarchies, sexism, prejudice exclusion of feminist thought and practice by calling what I say “distorted and biased” statements from a “sick mind with mental problems”.

      I don’t expect to have people feel warm and nice and affectionate when they see me (although that would be nice of course), but I do expect people to treat me with the same basic rights as others. When you mess with my basic rights to speak, to point out what I find is unfair, and sometimes even wanting to have a discussion about it. (physically excluding me from spaces, lists, etc is a really good way of getting on my bad side — it’s a super authoritarian way of excluding a critical voice. “If you don’t agree, or think as I do – Out!”).

      Screaming “Fascist” and “Sexist” at JD yesterday, I don’t regret. The guy is using a lot of power against me, and had a really condescending way of speaking to me. After screaming this at her, I asked her friend that was with her, what she thought of this. I was asking why they were laughing at me. The friend said she’s not interested in knowing what it was about, and that she thought I was ‘hysterical’. I in my turn called her ‘indifferent, ignorant, sexist’. And told them they could continue laughing. JD had a big smirk on her face while this was going on.

      I don’t expect people to feel warm and fuzzy when they see me. I just expect to have the same equal right to participation as anybody else. And the right to express my opinion in the same way you just expressed your opinion about me here. When I get excluded without getting a fair discussion about this first, then something is seriously wrong, and I will fight it until I get bored with it, or something else comes my way. I’m not going to pretend that everything is fine.

      If you look at how this exclusion got started, then I would like to ask you the same question: Why do you expect me to treat others better than they treat me?

      I don’t expect perfection or sainthood of others, but I do expect that they should be accountable and responsible for their own actions and words, and if I’ve felt hurt by something, I expect it to be possible to talk it through without being labeled ‘hysterical’ or ‘mentally ill’. (or: i’m fine with labeling words, just as long as there can be some kind of explanation with specific examples of the behaviors and situations that didn’t feel okay, and why)

      Maria, it would be nice to have a talk on this on the internal list. But we can also continue having it here if you wish.

  3. Quote from this blog about statement by Milla confirming her mental status:

    pozorování, on January 31st, 2010 at 2:09 pm Said:

    Milla

    I just read your own words:

    ‘I went Mental CRAZY’
    ‘Or else I will just break down. Go mad.’
    ‘I Never Had A Sane Day In My Entire Life.’
    Reply

  4. by Milla

    Hello “go-go”,

    I would like to repeat the same thing as I’ve said to Pozorovani —

    the comment you’re making creates a really oppressive atmosphere for me on this blog. And i would like to have some sort of dialogue with you about that. How could you make that possible?

    Or at least: What is your purpose of reading and writing on this blog?

    (your comment comes across as hateful.)

  5. the truth is painful isn’t it? just accept it. learn how to accept criticism.

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