by Milla [she=he]
I just posted this on the facebook wall of a feminist man. The guy took it down. Twice.. This will be continued in the following days. It will show just how fucked up I get by dealing with sexist behavior All The Time.
Filed under: > Milla & The Ban |
Another scene is possible 
by Milla
“sorry milla i didnt get those comments you made till just now
because i had alreayd removed your comment ffrom my wall”
— ARON
by Milla
“if you want to discuss this in public then can it be on your wall because my feeling is that mud sticks whether or not there is anything to it.”
— ARON
“i dont believe that i have said anythig sexist, and nor do two feminist women i have asked, id therefore rather not have that mud thrown at me in public when i dont think i deserve it, but if you want to talk publicly, then like i say, we could talk on your wall, and perhaps that would be a satisfactory comrpomise”
— ARON
i will post this on my facebook wall and respond to the comment there.
by Milla
this is what i posted as a response to aron on my facebook wall:
“i will take time.
which will be exhausting for me.
to go through that long talk that i’ve had with you aron. (2 days)
and try to point out where there’s sexist behavior going on and why.
i will make blog posts out of it…. See more
i will try to avoid mentioning stuff about your family. so it won’t be the full thing.
and i’m FUCKING EXHAUSTED so i would like for you to BACK OFF until i’ve DONE the WORK and THEN start complaining. or discussing or whatever you’d like to call it. you are welcome to bring feminist friends into the discussion.”
just to clarify, the first post i removed just said ‘aron embleton is a self righteous chauvinist in heavy denial’
you only changed it to the nice version after receivin gthis reply which you didnt include about
‘ok milla if youre going to post abusive messga es on my page then ill have to block you, im happy to engage with you about nay issue you like, to listen to anythin gyou have to say about me being a sexist pirce of shit, and hopefully the reason why you think that so that i can change, but if youre unwilling to actually do that then just sayin ghtat on my wall is nothing but abuse’
and like i have said in another comment since, the reason i am unwilling to have this discussion in public is because mud sticks and i dont think i deserve to have mud thrown at me, i have asked two feminist women i know and they agree that nothing sexist has been said or done. but like i say, im willing to listen to anything you want to say to me, and am willing and wanting to change if you can tell me something specific i am doing that is sexist, rather than just repeating the same accusations again and again without offering any grounds.
this is what i meant by that rather pathetic sounding ‘it seems youre trying to hurt me rather than help me’ comment. if you actually care about the sexism, and therefore want to stop it, then help me to stop it by pointing out to me what it is im doing that is sexist. however if you just want to launch a vendetta against me then obviously dont help get rid of my supposed sexism, just keep slinging mud at me.
ok when i began writing that respsone it was before all these replies by you milla so i will check them out now
Aron,
Milla seeks attention, and her pseudo-feminist politics are just a means to that end.
this is her M.O.
it is best not to fall into her traps.
by Milla
hi “pozorovani”,
yes. please, join this political debate in how the “scene” is treating women – especially feminist women with “issues”.
welcome to this blog: the Giant Trap.
🙂
Milla why do you insist on distorting everything, you really do act like a tabloid headline sometimes.
I never accused you of having issues, I just said, and only after your own actions had forced an explanation by necessity, that it had occured to me after certain things that you said and which you hinted at, that you might have some issues related to the topics we were debating, which might have ‘triggered’ as you said, your getting very upset.
I only mentioned that in order to explain some of my own behaviour which would otherwise have seemed a bit odd, which was telling you that I liked you and thought good of you in the midst of you levelling verbal abuse at me, which like I’ve said, I did because if on the off chance you had had issues of trust or low self esteem, then your abusive behaviour could have been an attempt to push people away and thereby fulfill the prophecy that no-one can be trusted or really like you when they say they do, so I was just trying to counter that, not because I thought that was necessarily what was happening, but because it could possibly have been, and there was nothing to be lost by it.
by Milla
Hello Aron,
to paraphrase you: Aron, why do you insist on distorting everything, you really do act like a male chauvinist sometimes.
you are responding to a response that was directed to >> “pozorovani” who is having the kindness to address you directly – Above My Head (Man To Man?) – to warn you of my ‘modus operandi’. [to make it clear. i am NOT addressing you in the previous post. if you have a look at it again, before you go about distorting things: it begins with “hi POZOROVANI”. NOT “hi aron”.]
yes. “the giant trap” is a reference to something that came up in a conversation that you and i had Aron. but is sprung from MY experience and MY life. it’s not to “get at you” or a response to you. I am speaking to “pozorovani” who is speaking to you over my head [i hope this got the situation clear]
i haven’t begun to address what i’ve found problematic with your behavior yet. but TRUST ME i will get to that. i can’t assure you that you will understand or agree. i can only assure you that i WILL make the EFFORT to explain. AND address you directly.
Meanwhile you can do me a favor and GET OFF MY BACK, and continue the discussion with “pozorovani”, since she’s talking to you. She seems to like you. And you seem to have similar political views. You could share your ideas about my mental health, and where you think my problems stem from.
ARON:
I will start posting blog posts and addressing the issues i have with you, within a week. Promise. !!
ok sorry i thought that was a reference to me even though it was in your response to pozrovani who i might add i appreciate the support of because it is not a nice feeling to be publicly attacked, obviously if i deserve it then that is ok, but if i dont, then it’s not.
and what is surprising about pozrovani addressing me, given that it was to me that they were talking? surely it would only be odd if they addressed me while communicating something they wished to say to you.
you can’t expect people to address their opinions to you, if when they do, you are unwilling to accept that you are capable of misunderstanding or misinterpreting what they say, and instead react to any suggestion by someone that you have misinterpreted them with accusations that they are being sexist, even though one would have thought that since they are the person who said it, they would be in quite a good position to know whether or not you’d interpreted their meaning correctly.
i wont get on your back as you put it, take as long as you want, i only said what i said as a response, because i thought you had brought something up, though i was wrong and it wasn’t a reference to me, so i apolgise for that, it was my misunderstanding, so unless you do make points about me, i promise i won’t make a sound.
by Milla
Hello again Aron,
to answer your question: “and what is surprising about pozrovani addressing me, given that it was to me that they were talking? surely it would only be odd if they addressed me while communicating something they wished to say to you.”
THERE IS NOTHING surprising about it. it is just disgustingly condescending not to even find out what the issue is, but to assume that i am only making this blog/blog post to “seek attention” and that what i do has nothing to do with feminism (“pseudo feminism”).
QUOTING:
“Milla seeks attention, and her pseudo-feminist politics are just a means to that end.”
AND THERE IS NOTHING surprising that you as a feminist man finds comfort in that this person speaks over my head, without addressing me directly, without even giving some real examples of what the hell it is that i do that is “seeking attention” and “pseudo”. ONE LINE it takes to discredit the work i put my life and mental health into. and you Aron, as a feminist man, feels COMFORT in hearing something like that..??! [you go on and on about me having to present “proof” and “evidence” but pozorovani just has to express an opinion!!? this is not “Mud” this is “Truth”?!]
IT IS NOT SURPRISING. It is CONDESCENDING that I am seen as an “attacker” and “attention seeking” freak when i’m making a huge effort to explain why the hell i don’t feel okay with certain behavior. It is NOT surprising, it is CONDESCENDING that i’m not taken seriously, and declared having “issues” (attention-seeking pseudo feminist) before i’ve even started!
FOR YOU to understand what’s disturbing about you liking and finding “comfort” in that one line comment – please have a look at this: METHODS OF DOMINATION.
=====
Master suppression techniques and how to neutralise them —
‘Master suppression techniques’ is a collective term for a range of practices. As a rule, they are used by an individual or group to make another individual – representing a specific group – feel small or to keep that person ‘in place’. These techniques take many different forms, from light banter to outright oppression.
Click to access Dom_tecnics.pdf
=====
Pozorovani is not “addressing the issues”. Pozorovani is here to condescend and ridicule, without causing any real debate about any issues. As a dominant Bully it’s easy to point finger and say: Crazy! (And not even talking to me directly. Using the first method of domination: Ignoring. CHECK THE LIST!! Pozorovani is using SEVERAL of them!!)
It’s easy to point finger and be a Bully; Harder to engage in real political debate. [Especially belonging to the oppressed group!] And that’s what i’m hoping will come out of this. Cause you’ve said a lot of things that need some serious explaining. So, I’m not the only one having to do the Explaining here.
WHEN YOU SAY THIS ARON: “you can’t expect people to address their opinions to you, if when they do, you are unwilling to accept that you are capable of misunderstanding or misinterpreting what they say, and instead react to any suggestion by someone that you have misinterpreted them with accusations that they are being sexist, even though one would have thought that since they are the person who said it, they would be in quite a good position to know whether or not you’d interpreted their meaning correctly.”
I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS A HUGE political difference we have in this. It is not the guy who touches my ass on the bus who is there to decide how i’m supposed to interpret the touch, what the meaning of the touch was, and how I should feel about it. It is not you who say sentences like “Milla why do you insist on distorting everything” (without even ending the sentence with a QUESTION MARK ! ! ?) to tell me how i’m supposed to interpret your words and your “intention” with it. You tell me that me not accepting your reality of things is a “distortion” and “throwing mud” and “misinterpretations” on my side. And that pozorovani is just a nice, sound person having a chat with you on this blog. (!!??)
THIS is how it goes according to Me; YOU as a feminist man CAN’T (CAN NOT!) expect people who feel oppressed in relation to you to EDUCATE and SOOTHE you when you keep having a CONDESCENDING attitude about them speaking about how they feel when you flaunt your male privilege all over the place!
People with privilege are IGNORANT! And you belong to SEVERAL privileged groups!! You are NOT neutral. You are NOT displaying neutral individuality and originality. You are a part of this society JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE !
And I find your interpretation of reality: OPPRESSIVE.
Pozrovani’s comment was either good or bad depending on whether s/he is right or wrong.
The issue I was commenting on wasn’t the substance of Pozrovani’s claim, but simply the fact that it wasn’t addressed to you, which was a particular complaint you made.
I find comfort in their support of me, not in their criticism of you, though one is linked to the other, it is not the critical aspect which comforts me, because I’m not a sadist.
Then we get to the most beautiful part of what you said, which is your criticsm of Pozrovani not giving any reasons- Well I’d like to make an introduction: Your own behaviour, this is Milla, Milla, this is your own behaviour.
The examples you give demonstrate that you’re failing to grasp what I’m saying.
A person grabbing your arse is not the same as a person telling you how they see something.
Obviously if a person grabs your arse then they have sexually assaulted you.
But if someone says to you:
‘Milla, I love Dogs’
and you say:
‘Wow, that’s pretty freaky, is there a particular dog you plan to marry or are you just havng one night stands with them’
and they say:
‘No Milla, you’ve misinterpreted me, I didn’t mean that I loved dogs like that, I just mean I am very fond of them as pets’
then you can’t say:
‘Oh, so everything is in my head yeah sure YOU SEXIST FUCKING PRICK, typical chauvinist behaviour, you decide what reality, what I say doesn,t matter cos I’m just some crazy woman right whatever you say CONDESCENDING PIECE OF SHIT’
because of course the person who says something does know better than you what they meant by it, and therefore whether or not you’ve misinterpreted them.
This is not to say that people don’t lie, for example they might have said something and then they didn’t get the reaction they wanted or it got them into trouble so they backtrack and try and deny thatis what they meant and pretend they meant something else, but unless the case is controversial like that, then it is clearly the person who said the thing who knows best what they meant.
In the particular case of our conversation, what I had said was that I thought it was dangerous to hitchhike, or couchsurf, because some people are dangerous, and so putting your safety in the hands of a stranger is running the risk of putting your safety into the hands of a dangerous person.
I also made it clear that my opinion was not based on media scare stories, but on my personal life experience, and the amount of dangerous people I have known, and the amount of people I know who have been attacked by such people.
Yet you interpreted what I said as being that all women should live in paralysing fear of rape so that they never leave the house and become easy prey for abuse at the hands of their partners or family members or close friends- non-strangers.
And I said that you had misinterpreted me, that I didn’t mean that, that I recognise that one can have an excessive fear of things, and that furthermore excessive fear is indeed common in our society, and agreed with your point that such an excess of fear does indeed facilitate the abuse and manipulation of women by people they know and are close to, and also that I agree that there is disproportionate coverage of the danger of strangers when abuse by people known to the abused is so prevalent.
So I said to you, all I was saying was that I think there is a middle path between paralysing fear and no fear, which one can call taking ‘reasonable precautions’. And so your interpretation of what I had said as being ‘I think all women should live in paralysing fear of rape’ was a misinterpretation.
Yet to you, the fact that I tried to clear up a simple misinterpretation of my own words, meant that I was telling you that you were crazy and that everything was all in your head and therefore I was a massive sexist exercising my male privilege like a typical chauvinist.
Do you think that is a reasonable reaction? I mean if you think that I am wrong, and that there are so few dangerous people out there that putting your safety in the hands of strangers isn’t very dangerous at all because only one in a million people are dangerous then fine, we just disagree over how many dangerous people there are.
And fine, given that you feel I radically overestimate the number of dangerous people out there, you would be quite within your rights to say to me:
‘Although I understand you recognise the harm done to women by promoting excessive fear, and would not consciously promote it, I feel that in this case you are inadvertantly doing so, because what you see as urging reasonable caution, is, due to your being mistaken about the numbers of dangerous strangers, in fact a promotion of unreasonable fear, which will only add to that culture of fear, and help to keep women down.’
Just as I would be within my rights to say to you:
Although I recognise that you sincerely believe there are so few dangerous people out there that such caution as is usually urged towards them is undue and therefore just functioning as part of a ‘mechanism of fear’ by which women are kept down, I think that there are actually enough dangerous people out there to warrant such caution as is advised and excercised and that indeed, you are encouraging people to put themselves at unnecessary risk by promoting a disregard for what is a very real danger in this case’
Now I’ve worded both of those quite respectfully, because that is the what you have demanded I do otherwise you call me condescending etc. However I wouldn’t mind if you had said it in plain terms like:
Aron, you’re paranoid, there’s virtually no risk at all, it’s all a total exaggeration and just functions to keep women in the place they suffer the real danger and abuse, in the home.
That’s fine, I prefer frank exchange like that.
But you didn’t even do that, although by your own standards that would have been hypocrtiical of you considering what you called me when I spoke frankly. but no, that level of hypocracy wasn’t enough, not only did you speak to me without the non-violent language you demanded of me, but…
You refused to accept that I knew what I meant by my own words, that is to say, you took possession of the meaning of my words, and then accused me of exercising entitlement! You accuse me of being condescending, when you are the one telling me what I mean by my own words, you accuse me of not listening to you, when you are the one who when they have it politely and patiently explained to them that they have misinterpreted something go ballistic and shower them with insults and accusations, most of which, as I’ve pointed out, are total projections of your own behaviour.
As far as I see it Milla, people regularly misunderstand and misinterpret each other, it is a hazard of communication, and so a conversation between two reasonable people will involve occasions where one person asks the other for clarification, or explains to the other person that they have misinterpreted them, and clarifies what it was they were actually saying, this doesn’t mean they are calling the other person crazy.
And that reminds me of another double standad- You never asked me for clarification, you just took your interpretation to be fact and attacked me without second thought. Yet when it was the other way round, not only did I ask for clarification, and explanation, but had to beg for it for hours and still didn’t get it, whilst all the time listening to the same groundless accusations I was asking the reasons for, over and over.
But anyway, away from our disagreement and back to our friendship for one second, did you like your picture, have you had a look at it on your graffiti page?
by Milla
to Aron. Who is refusing to Back The Fuck Off until i’ve posted something that the guy can complain about.
just wanting to point out. that yes i felt seriously abused by this guys behavior. and i find the behavior on display now offensive as well. and as well adding that Aron’s “examples” of how it “feels like” for the Oppressor to talk with a person offended by her oppressive behavior, what it feels like for the Oppressor to listen to the person offended speaking and expressing out loud, and as well going MENTAL CRAZY after having been exposed to it long enough. well. just saying that the quotes that Aron is using aren’t real.
i find it unnecessary discussing those. i’d rather wait until the REAL stuff is published on this blog.
here are some examples:
“i dont care if you be like this
i still like you
i think that all night you have been totally disgracing dfmeinism
by usiong these word sin vain
calling things sexist when they are not”
— Aron Anton Embleton, Anti-sexist man
“the experience is all in your head”
— Aron Anton Embleton, Anarchist man
“yes you a what you call a reversed sexist”
— Aron Anton Embleton, Feminist man
I know that you are eager to deal with my sexist behavior against men Aron, but please please please, think of this as distortion and misrepresentation and whatever the (fuck) you please. I NEED A BREAK. I NEED A BREAK. I’ve told you several times that i will make BLOG POSTS. and THEN — Like THEN — you can start your complaining and explaining. and justification for your perfect conduct and your brave antisexism.
CAN’T YOU WAIT?
And I’ve told you several times that that is fine, I am happy to drop it and never bring it up again, you can have all the time in the world, if you need a break have one, I won’t say another word as I’ve said, unless of course you make a load of points about me in which case I will respond, because you’re obviously not to tired to have the last word are you.
They’re not quotes at all Milla, because I don’t record private conversations and then publicly broadcast them against their will, they are not pretending to be quotes, they are illustrations.
They are examples of what would and wouldn’t be appropriate responses, and the inappropriate response I give an illustration of, where the claim that you have misinterpreted something I’ve said is followed by you calling me sexist and condescending etc is closely modelled on a million real life examples, in actual fact, it is a pretty tame and moderate example of them, as you know, and as will be demonstrated if you show the entire discussion, although of course funnily enough you’ve happened to not have recorded the first half in which so much of your bad behaviour was contained.
[…] blog post is an Interlude following >> Hot Topic – Feminist Men #1. I recommend reading the comments to that blog post. In the comment section Orelse is far inside my […]
by Milla
Aron. You don’t need proof. I can provide it right here:
Shut the fuck up. And give me a break from your patriarchal bullcrap. You condescending degrading sexist piece of shit.
I’m sorry I didn’t have the mental balance to save the whole abusive condescending conversation. You are absolutely right. I need to prove it all. I need to lick that madness, wrap closely around it. Repeat it with words and in my mind several times over. And still not be understood. Because it is like you said: All in my head. And me re-experiencing the same oppressive relation in having this discussion here with you, is also All in my head. Because you are not condescending or sexist in your behavior. That’s up to you to decide. Not me. Cause you know the real meaning of things. Not me. I’m just trapped in illusions.
I have a friend. Her name is Orelse. But she’s not here right now.
>>>
Feminist Men. INTERLUDE: Orelse, was the name of a lovely child who knew nothing of Gender related power structures. http://wp.me/pmj9t-Ea
Like usual, you misrepresent what I say, are you doing that on purpose?
What I said, is that I thought you misinterpreted me when you took my saying that I think there is a middle road between paralysing fear and no fear, called reasonable precaution, to be me saying that all women should live in fear of rapists and become easier to manipulate by their partners etc at home.
That is not saying that everything is in your head and that you’re crazy, just that you misinterpreted something I had said, which like I’ve said, is something we all commonly do.
Neither did I say I ‘knew the meaning of things’ any more than you, just that the person who says something, knows what they are trying to say, better than the person who hears it, because they are capable of misinterpreting the other person, whereas the person who says it cannot misinterpret their own meaning, because they don’t need to interpret it, because it’s their meaning!
by Milla
QUOTING ARON:
”
The examples you give demonstrate that you’re failing to grasp what I’m saying.
A person grabbing your arse is not the same as a person telling you how they see something.
Obviously if a person grabs your arse then they have sexually assaulted you.
But if someone says to you:
”
ARON: I do not feel comfortable with you, the oppressor, making graphic depictions of sexualized assault including myself. you can use yourself as an example. or talk about another person.
i don’t want you, the oppressor, to create visual images of sexualized abuse including myself.
i find it oppressive.
by Milla
but telling you that i need a break. and telling you that i wish for you to fuck off until i’ve posted the material and made my statements on WHY i feel you are behaving in an ignorant callous way towards me, and then having the discussion starting after that. this is also just words.
maybe me saying now that i don’t want you to talk about me MILLA AHOLA in sexualized oppressive contexts as an “example”. I DO NOT FEEL OKAY WITH THAT.
I FIND IT OPPRESSIVE.
maybe me saying this is just as hard for you to understand. maybe the effect of you as the oppressor using me – this woman – as an example of facing sexualized oppression is not “meaning” any harm. but in fact. what is happening when you give these examples is EXTREMELY HARMFUL ON MY MENTAL HEALTH. i don’t want you – the oppressor – to talk about me in this way.
If you aren’t happy with that example then don’t use it, because it was you that used it, I was just answering you, here is the quote of you using it that I was responding to:
“I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS A HUGE political difference we have in this. It is not the guy who touches my ass on the bus who is there to decide how i’m supposed to interpret the touch, what the meaning of the touch was, and how I should feel about it. It is not you who say sentences like “Milla why do you insist on distorting everything” (without even ending the sentence with a QUESTION MARK ! ! ?) to tell me how i’m supposed to interpret your words and your “intention” with it. You tell me that me not accepting your reality of things is a “distortion” and “throwing mud” and “misinterpretations” on my side.”
by Milla
THIS IS CONDESCENDING:
“If you aren’t happy with that example then don’t use it”
A large part for why I was going desperate crazy speaking with you Aron, was that there was an exhausting endless repetition of you – AS A MAN – giving examples of ME in situations of sexualized abuse (rape etc) in a mix of condescendingly speaking to me “from above”. [which you are also doing here]
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IF I SPEAK OF IT AND IF YOU SPEAK OF IT !!!! IT FEELS DIFFERENT TO ME IF I SPEAK OF MYSELF. AND IF A MAN – especially a man with condescending insensitive behavior, speaking as if they were the centre of the universe when it comes to the knowledge of women’s oppression (!?) IF A MAN IS REPEATEDLY SPEAKING OF ME IN SEXUALLY ABUSIVE SITUATIONS. [then goes on saying that i’m using reversed sexism and am a disgrace to feminism!!]
I DON’T LIKE IT !! IT DOES NOT FEEL NEUTRAL TO ME. IT DOES NOT FEEL COMFORTING AND SAFE. IT DOES NOT FEEL OKAY. — STOP IT !! IT FEELS ABUSIVE. GET IT !!
THAT was the thing that got to me in the end. AND the fact that there WAS NO SPACE to express MY NEEDS in a SAFE way. instead you kept saying that whatever experience i was expressing to you “was all in my head”.
THE ARGUMENT we had. WE HAVE A DIFFERENT IDEA of what the ARGUMENT WAS ABOUT. Starting with you saying that another woman had been “overreacting” when breaking off contact with me. And I was pointing out that you had no idea what the hell you were talking about. And this i see as related to the discussion on me speaking of the SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION being in all and everyone. While you seem to think that there are only some few violent persons out there that it makes sense to fear (you mentioned 1-5%). While others or “not strangers” apparently cause no harm. And that you yourself does not cause harm. Because you are better than other men. I DISAGREE.
I started the discussion with you on behaviors that i said that i didn’t like in my interaction with you. Related to an “over-familiarity” that i didn’t feel okay with in regards to you.
I DON’T LIKE IT THAT GUYS TALK ABOUT ME IN SEXUALLY ABUSIVE SITUATIONS.
I CAN SPEAK ABOUT THIS MYSELF.
BUT I WANT YOU TO STOP !! NOW !!
Do not even fucking quote. Make your own examples. You’re perfectly capable of that. You’ve proved that in your imaginary “Milla-says-dog-lovers-are-condescending-sexist-pricks” [aka “see how crazy she is!! see how she overreacts!!” ] conversation that you made before.
SO TO BE CLEAR:
#1 DO NOT SPEAK OF ME, MY PERSON IN ANY SEXUALLY ABUSIVE SITUATION
#2 DO NOT SPEAK OF ME, MY PERSON IN ANY ABUSIVE SITUATION (BULLYING, SEXUAL HARASSMENT)
USE YOUR OWN FUCKING BODY. USE YOURSELF TO ABUSE IN YOUR OWN FUCKING EXAMPLES [while you’re at the same time telling me how i “don’t get things” and how i should react and not. condescending asshole]
#3 IF I SPEAK OF MYSELF, AND MY OWN EXPERIENCES IN ABUSIVE SITUATIONS [like this one is] I DON’T WANT YOU TO “QUOTE” ME
I REPEAT: MAKE YOUR OWN EXAMPLES.
GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD NOW !!
MAKE YOUR OWN EXAMPLES. CONTINUE YOUR MILLA HATES DOG LOVERS AND SAY THEY ARE CONDESCENDING SEXISTS INSTEAD. CONTINUE WITH SOME OTHER FANTASY OF YOUR ENJOYMENT.
i dont think you understand how analogies work, i wasnt saying that you thought dog lovers are anything, analogies illustrate a common principle in the two situations, they are not replicas, because then they wouldn’t be analogous, they’d be the same thing, the only thing that has to be the same is the principle being illustrated by showing it in another context.
i will say ‘when one has one’s bum touched’ or ‘when one puts oneself at risk’, that is easy for me to do, i’m not trying to evoke disturbing imagery in your head, if that will help, then consider it done.
as for me saying that only a 1-5% of people are dangerous and everyone else, the people we know, are safe. i have never said that. in fact i have repeatedly explained again and again that i specifically dont think that, as will be revealed when you post our conversation. in fact we dont have to wait that long, because even in this discussion on your blog, i have said:
” recognise that one can have an excessive fear of things, and that furthermore excessive fear is indeed common in our society, and agreed with your point that such an excess of fear does indeed facilitate the abuse and manipulation of women by people they know and are close to”
that is, that people we know and are close to can be dangerous, and that such risk of abuse that they do pose is facilitated by excessive fear.
and lastly, for the millionth time, i did not say that everything is in your head, i said that you had misinterpreted a specific thing that i had said, and i then described to you what i was actually saying.
as has already been said before on this blog in previous comments on this very thread.
by Milla
Being a man. And being in interaction with a woman. And this woman says that she doesn’t feel well by the interaction. In fact she feels oppressed by the situation. She says: Fuck off.
For the man Not to do as the woman says. But instead be convinced that there must be some deep psychological ‘hidden’ reasons for why this woman says Fuck off. That in fact it must mean that she means that she’s scared of the (good? innocent?) person leaving her, so that she saying: “Fuck off” is in fact just her projecting her inner reality of living in a shitty world where she’s being treated like shit all the time, and people are not nice to her, and The Man is certain that She is misinterpreting what she’s feeling in the situation. And She is by saying Fuck off just “trying to make her Inner Prophecy true”. It’s not the world that’s messed up. It’s her inner reality…
This is patriarchal madness. This is a patriarch speaking. This is not a man sensitive to a woman expressing her needs. No means No.
No means No. Fuck off means fuck off. Condescending sexist means..
ARON SAID:
“…in order to explain some of my own behaviour which would otherwise have seemed a bit odd, which was telling you that I liked you and thought good of you in the midst of you levelling verbal abuse at me, which like I’ve said, I did because if on the off chance you had had issues of trust or low self esteem, then your abusive behaviour could have been an attempt to push people away and thereby fulfill the prophecy that no-one can be trusted or really like you when they say they do, so I was just trying to counter that, not because I thought that was necessarily what was happening, but because it could possibly have been…”
Fuck off means fuck off. No means no. Me telling a man talking to me in a condescending tone for several hours that the guy is a condescending degrading sexist piece of shit is not me having “trust issues” or “low self esteem”. That’s me being pissed off cause I’m not being listened to.
I don’t need your condescending psychology of what was “really” going on in that situation.
ARON SAID:
“the expression, the personal is political, as well as the master suppression techniques etc, are all things i very much believe in, i just don’t agree that what is happening here is master suppression, or sexism, and i think as i’ve said before that you have a real nerve using feminism to explain or defend your abusive behaviour.
the personal is political does not mean that people have no right to privacy.
i agree that if someone is abusive to you in private then they lose their right to privacy, however i haven’t been abusive to you, in fact i’ve bent over backwards to be sensitive to you.”
SOME OF THE CHAT WE HAD STARTING WITH ARON after I’ve expressed several times that she’s expressing male privileged behaviors, and that i don’t want to talk with her unless she’s read Everyday Male Chauvinism http://wp.me/Pmj9t-w7:
”
male chauvisnit privilege blaaaaaaah
but like you say
you dont want to talk to me till ive read that text
Milla
i’ve had enough. and i would like to finish this now
Aron
so ill speak to you later i guess
good timing
ok
goodnight
Milla
unaware sexist prick
Aron
hypocrite
:):)
Milla
it’s not funny
Aron
you i like anyway
charming hypocrite
Milla
asshole
condescending sexist shit
Aron
lol
Milla
condescending sexist shit
Aron
youve been sexist and insulting
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
all through the conversation
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
i really like you milla
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shitcondescending degrading
sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
im sorry if ive hurt your feelings
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
but youve been insulting to me
Milla
wathc out for the bad rapists
Aron
youve not had the respect to listen to my argumetns
or to think abouthtem
Milla
watch out for the bad rapists
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
yeah there are rapists out there milla
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
you have insulted me
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
you have insulted feminism by using it in vain
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
you have manifested every single behaviour that you have accused me of
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
because you project things all the time
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
and make lots of assumptions
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
and mistinterpretations
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
you even project the fact that youre projecting on to me
which is amazing
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
so call me what you like
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
im not telling you i like you to be condescnedingits because its true
and i want you to know that i have no hard feelings
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
Aron
i did tlol because im laughing at you
Milla
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
condescending degrading sexist piece of shit
”
Aron thinks it’s sensitive and bending over backwards to not listen to a woman insulted and disturbed by her behavior. I’ve heard the “You’re so cute when you’re angry” comment before. I’ve even passed it on in sarcastic rage to another sexist Man. She actually said that that was “sexual harassment”, in spite of her being responsible for a sexist exclusion including men drawing penises on walls of women only spaces. and me having to listen to “shut up and get laid” logic. When i lash out at this man ONCE with the comment i’ve had to hear throughout my life. she feels “sexually harassed” by it.
Aron is here displaying classic behavior of a patriarch. laughing at my anger. finding it “charming”. repeatedly saying that i’ve been sexist. and that i myself am using the word in “vain”. Yes. No doesn’t mean no to a patriarch. No means whatever she wants to hear. So if a feminist woman is stating CLEARLY there is a sexist dynamic happening in the conversation. And spending hours to make that clear. And ending it with the clear fact that I do not want to speak with this guy again unless she’s read the text Everyday Male Chauvinism http://wp.me/Pmj9t-w7, and I might consider having a talk, cause I’m interested in the text and discussing it. then the reply is. “male chauvinist blaaaaaah” and that i’ve been sexist.
the whole fucking conversation was like that.
EVEN IF there would have been a “misunderstanding” in the beginning. Things or VERY clear NOW.
A feminist man “sensitively bending over backwards” by laughing at a woman upset by the man’s chauvinist behavior.
No Thank You.
Aron, you’ve been asking about friendship a few times, and I would like to say that I can’t see that happening. But for sure, I’m interested in continuing this debate. It’s really hard to find people who are willing to discuss these things with me. So, even though I don’t feel comfortable by your way of speaking, I appreciate that you don’t choose the easy way out like Pozorovani – to just stay in silent anonymity, coming with the occasional “pseudo feminist” “Milla’s insane rants” remark.
I don’t want your friendship. But I do appreciate aggravating heart-ripping dialogue. I will try to find a way to take care of myself emotionally through this. And looking forward to your replies, however overwhelming they might be. [it’s really hard to process the continuous flow of male privileged behavior you fail to recognize. it would take forever to comment on all the bits and pieces of it. in this comment round i’m only bringing out a few of things said.]
by Milla
ARON SAID:
“i dont think you understand how analogies work, i wasnt saying that you thought dog lovers are anything, analogies illustrate a common principle in the two situations, they are not replicas, because then they wouldn’t be analogous, they’d be the same thing, the only thing that has to be the same is the principle being illustrated by showing it in another context.”
i do understand how it works. and i do understand from your analogy that you are saying that i get upset about nothing. and that nothing sexist has occured. and that it’s even absurd of me to say so. i do understand that you are saying that.
MY ANALOGY:
Anti-sexist man:
“Ha ha. I’m really worried about my ex-girlfriend getting it together with some other man. Cause she wouldn’t be able to find someone as good and caring as me”
Anti-sexist woman:
“So you don’t see yourself as other men?”
Anti-sexist man:
“No, I am the most feminist person I know of all the persons I meet face to face. I really get on people’s nerves bugging them about offensive stuff they do. Other men are dangerous. Strangers are dangerous. I care about you. You should let people you know every time you go sleeping at some strange persons place. It’s like a giant trap. They could just lock the doors, and you could be raped. Or hitch-hiking. It’s like taking the death lottery. Who in their right mind would go on the death lottery?”
Anti-sexist woman:
“So you don’t see yourself as being capable of having harmful privileged behaviors? By the way, I feel disturbed by some behaviors that you have.”
Anti-sexist man:
“Of course I could be sexist, but I’m really better than anybody else I know, and I’m not noticing any sexism in this conversation. Things don’t have to be sexist just because you say so.”
Anti-sexist woman:
“Well, it’s this thing about you repeating -”
Anti-sexist man:
“You didn’t listen to me!! And you misinterpret everything I say!!”
Anti-sexist woman:
“Well, I don’t feel I get space to explai -”
Anti-sexist man:
“You talk way too long anyways, and I never said what I meant” [yeah i’m writing it like that cause a lot of what defensive men say just don’t make sense to me..]
Anti-sexist woman:
“Fuck, like i just want some space to spea-”
Anti-sexist man:
“You are a hypocrite!! You don’t understand!! You distort!!”
Anti-sexist woman:
[— going nuts — can’t take the defensive shit anymore, from the anti-sexist man who is so much better than everybody else around the guy ?? she writes “fuck off.” “shut up.” and just random letters “asödf adfkg kjgio kkjjfgp fdkkfg”]
Anti-sexist man:
“LOL. Charming hypocrite. I don’t care what you do. I STILL like you. I’m not behaving sexist. This is just your misinterpretation of things. You distort things. You just make assumptions all the time. You are sexist and insulting and a disgrace to feminism.”
END OF ANALOGY.
I will make the healthy thing and ignore any response to this. I will post the chat I had with Aron. I’m not putting a time limit to it. I’ve spent way too much of my time and life energy with this negativity. Several days now. I have other disturbing shit to sort out. I need to take care of myself. But i will continue posting blog posts on the ‘Anti-sexist man case’ at some point. I’m not setting a deadline for myself. Cause I don’t see why the hell I should stress myself about this.
I’ve always been and remain willing to ‘fuck off’, I’m not hounding you, I’m merely replying to any attacks you make against me, if you don’t make attacks, I won’t make a sound, as I’ve told you many times before this.
The deep psychological reason that you mention, was not a privileged assumption, it was a result of you having told me that you’d suffered in various ways, and me thinking that perhaps this is what you were referring to when you said that talking about the issues we were talking about was ‘triggering’ you.
Even if I am wrong, which I’m perfectly happy to accept, that doesn’t mean that that was an unreasonable hypothesis to have considered. And since the only result of me thinking that that might be the case was for me to feel guilty for having been insensitive to such potential negative emotional associations, and therefore to decide to try and make you feel better, however badly that turned out, I don’t think it is an example of me being sexist or abusive.
I was and am happy to accept that you were not acting on the basis of some psychological issues. But the only thing that it affects either way is whether or not I feel sorry for my behaviour, because if you don’t have issues, then there was nothing for me to be insensitive about, unless of course you think simply disagreeing with you makes me insesnitive or sexist.
And please can we get one thing straight once and for all, I’m not saying and never have said that everything’s in your head, just that you misinterpreted one specific thing I’d said.
Do you accept that even though you are a woman and I am a man, that you’re part of an oppressed class and I’m a member of an oppressive class, that it is still possible for you to misinterpret me?
And if it is possible, and you do misinterpret me, what am I meant to do? Do you want me not to tell you?
As far as laughing at your anger is concerned, sure, that is a classic sexist move, but it isn’t necessarily sexist, because it is also typical of another classic human situation, someone being farcically hypocritical, in this case too, the reaction is to laugh, because what the person says is laughable.
That quote which you have taken to suit you, was preceded by about literally 3 or 4 hours of conversation throughout which you had constantly been abusing me, calling me all sorts of horrible things, talking to me like a piece of shit, telling me to fuck off etc, yet throughout it all, I never rose to it, I kept calm, and stuck to the points.
Then, after about 3 or 4 hours, I lost my patience, and told you what I though in black and white, that you were a total hypocrite, that you were being abusive, that you were accusing me of everything you were actually doing yourself etc. Because I had given up on the hope of engaging with you on any of the issues rationally.
So when you accused me of being abusive to you etc etc, then I laughed, because I thought, what a fucking joke.
As far as calling you charming etc and saying I liked you whilst you were really angry. Again, I recognise that that is a typical sexist thing men do when they are not taking women seriously. But it is only sexist if they are not taking the woman seriously without good reason.
However I had taken you seriously for 3 or 4 hours. I had laboured beyond points most people would probably have given up at in order to try and engage with you seriously, taking your claims reasonably, no matter how unfair, offensive or irrational they were. But eventually I just gave up, I thought I’m never going to get through, and I stopped taking what you were saying seriously, because it had been irrational and abusive for hours.
But why didn’t I just walk away? Why stay there and say things like I really like you, and you’re charming and all the rest of it.
Because I thought you were suffering a lot of problems, I was already aware that you had had these types of arguments with people before and been pushed away, that you’d had other experiences before that had ‘damaged your mental health’ – your words.
And so I had a choice, walk away, or stay and stick it out and try and be there for you as a friend. Which is what I’m still trying to do, despite the fact that what started as only having to endure your insults in private has now become having to endure them in public.
I’m not saying it was a clever thing to do, looking back with hindsight yeah it was only going to make you feel more angry, but at the time I had it in my head that if the underlying motivation of your anger was feelings of loneliness and low self esteem- things which I didn’t just dream up but which you told me about yourself- then maybe the best thing I could do was to show you that I would like you no matter what, even if you were really nasty.
Sorry if my amateur psychology was rubbish and made things worse. But that’s what it was, not a refusal to take you seriously because you’re a women, but a refusal to take you seriously because I just coudln’t take what you were saying seriously.
But though I think you were being hypocritical and unreasonable there, I don’t want to give the impression that I think you are an unreasonable or hypocritical person generally, I’ve enjoyed lots of discussions with you where you’ve pointed things out about me that I didn’t realise or opened my eyes to issues I’d been previously unaware of or failed to grasp the real significance of.
Just as you appreciate me continuing this debate, even though you find it difficult, likewise I appreciate that you’re genuine and principled, even though I think you are mistaken about some things, and that too is hard to find. So if there are any practical changes you can suggest to me about the way I’m communicating with you that would make you feel more comfortable, then I’ll do my best to adopt them.
The above response was to the post you mde before your last one.
In response to your latest post, I’d just like to point out that you are not quoting me because you don’t make that clear.
So yeah, in case anyone is reading this other than me and you, then that above was not a quote.
I never said that my ex-girlfriend “wouldn’t be able to find someone as good and caring as me”
This is an example of why I didn’t take you seriously after a while, because I keep having to explain the same things to you and you keep making claims that I said things like this even though I’ve already told you that that is not what I was saying and explained to you what I was saying.
Which in regards to the above lie, what I actually said was:
I worry about my ex-girlfriend and all the single women I care about in that many men are so misogynistic, manipulative and abusive and I get scared in case they end up in a relationship with one of them and get hurt.
I specifically made clear to you that I wasn’t saying that I was the best man in the world and that there was no-one better than me after you accused me of saying that the first time, I’ve since had to do that over and over, and after about the twentieth time I stop taking you seriously, as anyone would, because you’re demonstarting a total unwillingness to listen to me or question your assumptions.
Like I said, of course there are other nice men and men who are better than me, but in terms of not being a sexist bastard, I’m better than most of the men I see around me, which isn’t hard, so it isn’t impressive, but I think it’s true.
Likewise with this claim that I’m saying that strangers are dangerous.
What I actually said was, as I’ve had to explain so many times, that I think there are some people who are dangerous, I think this because I’ve met some of them.
Therefore a stranger could possibly be one of these dangerous people.
Most people are nice, certainly not dangerous, so a stranger will probably be nice.
But that doesn’t change the fact that they might be dangerous.
Therefore it is a risk to put one’s safety into the hands of strangers.
And so to put it into context. Yes, I think that when you go couchsurfing (which for people who don’t know is where you go and sleep on the couches of strangers) and you go inside a stranger’s house….IF……they are dangerous (and I recognise they are probablity not) and want to harm you, then their house is in effect a giant trap, if they lock their door and they come in while one is sitting in their living room, then one is trapped.
I don’t think we should live in paralysing fear, but I think we should take reasonable precautions, and not putting your safety into the hands of strangers who could be dangerous is something I’d consider to fall under the category ‘reasonable precaution’ rather than ‘paralysing fear’.
If you disagree, as you do, then that’s fine, but I think that my having that different opinion doesn’t make me a condescending sexist, yet you called me that for holding that opinion.
by Milla
Like I said Aron. I’m sick of you using something that could even hint at or indicate that it’s me you are talking of in the example of someone facing abuse. I do not feel comfortable when you do that. And even more discomfort after I in BIG letters, and point by point tried to make it clear to you.
So I try AGAIN:
I want to make it clear to you. That I want you to stop doing that.
Just stop doing that. That simple. Stop.
“And so to put it into context. Yes, I think that when you go couchsurfing (which for people who don’t know is where you go and sleep on the couches of strangers) and you go inside a stranger’s house….IF……they are dangerous (and I recognise they are probablity not) and want to harm you, then their house is in effect a giant trap, if they lock their door and they come in while one is sitting in their living room, then one is trapped.”
Aron.
Stop.
Doing.
That.
You changed to “one” in the end. But you started the example with something that could easily be understood as a reference to me. (EASILY – stop making references – AND stop making excuses).
This is not me just speaking for the fun of it. I said that I will ignore you. BUT stop fucking making references to my person in giant traps and abusive situations.
Stop.
Just Stop.
==========
And for people who don’t know about Couch Surfing Please Have A Look At:
Participate in creating a better world, one couch at the time:
http://www.couchsurfing.org/
There are two buttons to click on that page: “Find out more”, and “Is this safe?”
Sorry Milla, the problem is that ‘you’ is commonly used to mean ‘one’ in English. ‘One’ is only used by posh people, so I am not used to using it in speech, because it sounds pretentious, because like I say it’s usually only used by posh people or people trying to sound clever.
So yeah, ‘you’ doesn’t mean ‘you’ it means ‘one’.
For example one would say ‘ You know when you feel so tired that your eyes just can’t stay open’.
That ‘you’ there is being used as ‘one’, it doesn’t mean ‘You know when you (as in specifically Milla) feel so tired….’
However I will try like I’ve said to be as careful as possible in my language, and to remember to use ‘one’ since you don’t seem familiar with the convention of using ‘you’ to refer to people generally.
by Milla
Hello Aron, I imagined that your response would be something condescending and demeaning like this:
“However I will try like I’ve said to be as careful as possible in my language, and to remember to use ‘one’ since you don’t seem familiar with the convention of using ‘you’ to refer to people generally.”
I know what the fuck You Means.
Just as I know that you mix the meaning of You (MILLA) and You (PERSONS IN GENERAL THAT YOU CAN PROJECT WHATEVER WORLDVIEW YOU HAVE ONTO) Just as it’s plain to see that you speak of “evil” people as “they” and not “we”… [us/them dichotomy]
“”””
And so to put it into context. Yes, I think that when you go couchsurfing (which for people who don’t know is where you go and sleep on the couches of strangers) and you go inside a stranger’s house….IF……they are dangerous (and I recognise they are probablity not) and want to harm you, then their house is in effect a giant trap, if they lock their door and they come in while one is sitting in their living room, then one is trapped.
I don’t think we should live in paralysing fear, but I think we should take reasonable precautions, and not putting your safety into the hands of strangers who could be dangerous is something I’d consider to fall under the category ‘reasonable precaution’ rather than ‘paralysing fear’.
If you disagree, as you do, then that’s fine, but I think that my having that different opinion doesn’t make me a condescending sexist, yet you called me that for holding that opinion.
“”””””””
Aron starts with a General=You that then slides into a Milla=You.
And the Milla=You Is Telling Aron that It’s Fucking Annoying to Have to repeat EXACTLY what it is that Aron needs to do in order to not be a condescending sexist shit that all the times repeats that “Hey, Milla, if you only saw things differently, then you wouldn’t be offended, You know, You know!?”
ANALOGY:
Anti-sexist man:
“If I laugh at you it’s not cause I’m sexist. It’s cause you deserve it. It’s just natural and normal. Cause I can’t take you seriously.”
About the couchsurfing: let all couches be equally comforting, no couch is better than the other and they can as suitable for a stranger, the one like the other. That’s what my grandmother used to say. Let us pray that someday we all find a real nice couch.
I was always using the general ‘you’, as I explained. But again, you refuse to listen, while demanding that I listen (which I always do, responding to every point you raise and accepting any correction of my interpretations that you make) and you refuse to question your assumptions.
If it is condescending for me to explain when you have mistaken what I am saying, then how am I meant to talk to you?
Also, and again as I have already explained to you many many times before when you’ve made this exact same allegation, I do not see people in some black and white good and evil dichotomy, all I am saying is that some people are dangerous to the extent that given the opportunity to take advantage of someone they would do, I have met people like this, I have known people who have been attacked by them, and I’ve been attacked myself by people like that.
And yes, of course laughing at someone isn’t inherently sexist because they happen to be a woman, if you are farcically hypocritical or unreasonable then you can’t expect people to take you seriously.
From my experience with you Milla, you take a person’s disagreeing with you to be inherently sexist and an example of privileged chauvinist abuse. After a while of this it does become farcical, and when you accuse people of doing exaclty what you have been doing for hours, then yes, it’s comical. That’s nothing to do with sexism, that’s to do with your behaviour.
Obviously everybody has a mixture of good and bad in them, but most people
…wouldn’t attack someone who came to their house to couchsurf or who hitchhiked a lift in their car. However we know for a fact that some people do, and it is these people who can be meaningfully distinguished from others as ‘dangerous’ in terms of the specific question we are addressing.