FROM ME TO MAXIGAS:
i would like to meet you in person and ask about the process behind
you kicking [U….] off the pga mailing list. there have been
several protests, and i haven’t seen any response to this on the list,
so i thought it might be easier to sort this out face to face. cause i
really don’t understand what’s going on.
this is me, on my own accord, not a messenger from [U…..] or
anybody else. just caring about the hallmarks, and really not wanting
pga to turn into some weird clique/institution. just a warm living
fleshy feeling human being, with some questions i’d like to have
cause it’s really weird when a person gets kicked off a list like
that, and no reasons given why. especially if this person has been
critical of the process.
i will most likely be in budapest in the beginning of february.
we could meet then?
FROM MAXIGAS TO ME:
first of all please take into consideration that i have some communication problems, mostly that i receive around 500 emails a day and when i am not in the mood i just don’t read them, other times i just read what is connected with my paid work.
second, as a point of principle on lists i don’t answer personal accusations in line with the policy of “don’t feed the troll” (you can google this phrase).
my more specific answers you can find below at the relevant places:
Subject: hello. how about meeting up?
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:40:31 +0200
> hello Maxigas,
> i would like to meet you in person and ask about the process behind
> you kicking [U…..] off the pga mailing list. there have been
> several protests, and i haven’t seen any response to this on the list,
> so i thought it might be easier to sort this out face to face. cause i
> really don’t understand what’s going on.
> this is me, on my own accord, not a messenger from [U…..] or
> anybody else. just caring about the hallmarks, and really not wanting
> pga to turn into some weird clique/institution. just a warm living
> fleshy feeling human being, with some questions i’d like to have
as i said before i don’t feel confortable near you. one consequence of that is that i don’t want to meet you, and want to actively avoid meeting you. about kicking out, i gave explanation and exchanged views on- and offlist with [U…..], you, vlanto, [mr……..], and i don’t know who else. if i couldn’t provide an explanation that satisfies all people, i don’t see how i could improve it. and for the moment i can live with that.
maybe some specific points that can make things more clear for you, based on my understanding of your understanding:
1. i am not an agent of vlanto, although we live together at the moment (i don’t really feel confortable talking about my personal circumstances to you but your agressivity made me). he has also admin rights so he could/can kick anybody off the list whenever he pleases.
2. at the time of the kickoff i was spending time in Hamburg and not even communicating with vlanto but trying to clear my head and find a solution to what was going on on the list at the time, talking to my activist friends there, etc.
3. when using force i don’t like to warn the adversary, especially not give excuses. for example if i would have given a warning and a very precise definition then the discussion would go forever again about whether those specific circumstances apply or not. for example to say that personal accusations are not OK, then the discussion would have been about whether this or that mail was personal accusation or not. i think this strategy is counterproductive because it reproduces the bulky unrelevant discourse that kicking of trolls solves.
4. [U……] wrote in several emails on several days (i checked this at the time) that he will stop that thread of discussion. the simple fact that he wrote the same several times successively shows that he did not live up to his promise.
5. i also raised some questions about the validity of using trolling, Godwin’s Law and similar fundamentals of Internet culture for political lists, and tried to establish processes to find a better way. however, there was not much interest in this (i stated the extent of my motivations clearly), so stuck to these traditions. if you still don’t understand some special words, i cannot help more. if you read the links that i posted on the list, you should have a clear idea of netiquette, or should know where to find more info.
OK, so please don’t ask me more questions about this.
> cause it’s really weird when a person gets kicked off a list like
> that, and no reasons given why. especially if this person has been
> critical of the process.
> i will most likely be in budapest in the beginning of february.
> we could meet then?
as i said, no.
also, to make things more clear: we discussed briefly about your visit to Budapest in the house meeting of our flat (The Base) and decided that we don’t want you there. with the collective of Morze Infoshop, we didn’t discuss anything. however, we will have an event on February 4 about the Greek riots, which i am organising with vlanto. i ask you not to come there for several reasons. firstly, as i said i don’t want to meet you. secondly, i know that vlanto would get crazy if you were there. thirdly, i have no option to skip the event because of you, since i already invited some specific people that only i know personally to attend and participate in the
discussion. depending on the motivation of the other people in the collective, you may or may not have the opportunity to visit the infoshop at another time, if you are interested.
ps: it seems i gathered the strengths to share my experience of meeting you, which left a lasting mark on me but which you wrote you forgot. this could help you to understand our relationship more clearly, and maybe also get some cues about meeting other people. when we met, you introduced yourself and said that you came to the PGA to meet strong personalities. from your metacommunication i had the idea that i don’t look like a strong personality in your eyes. also, i was a little puzzled because i am not familiar with any discourse about strong personalities and
i never thought of myself as a strong personality, let alone fancied to become one. and then, there i am, awestruck, in the middle of an anarchist camp, in my ghost outfit, contemplating whether i am a strong personality or not, and also the consequences which follow from that judgement: either you came to meet me, or i am just some ghost trash to trott over on the quest for the ubermensch unity. after all these mental and emotional processes through which i experienced and queried the unknown, i decided that even this idea of people walking around thinking about themselves as strong personalities sounded strange to me.
anyway, i translated this communicative moment for myself as somebody coming to me and saying “Hello. I am here to meet strong personalities like myself, and not people like you.” that hurt me surprisingly deeply somehow, maybe because i had a positive mindset those days and i imagined that i am in an idontknowwhat community where people care about each other, be they strong or weak, and even fight formal and informal hierarchies. also, it was really shocking that somebody
who doesn’t really know me suddenly appear and say something like that. so that was really bad for me and i will remember it all my life — even now that i am writing about it my hands are shaking.
> concerned regards