FROM ME TO MAXIGAS and the person who she excluded and the other administrators of the list:
hello Maxigas and [U…..] and the other administrators,
i feel a bit insecure writing to you, since i wrote you once before
about the practical guide and didn’t get any reply.
and that you had some criticism that you have some criticism towards
me, that you haven’t spoken out, just mentioned that you are feeling
afraid for some reason, in a mail to [L…..].
so i feel insecure about getting heard. and also about being taken
seriously, without preconceptions of who and how i am.
i think [U…..] brought out really important criticism.
and i think it’s a pity kicking her out, without first giving her a
warning. or establishing a rule, before the ones who have a certain
internet culture, expect that people who don’t use internet 24/7
should know how to behave ‘correctly’.
-the last one unsubscribing was [K….] and that was in relation to
a mail i sent.
-and the other group, was [C…..]. the group that vlanto was in.
-and the second person unsubscribing was in relation to a mail that vlanto sent.
-[w….] collective pointed out that they were about to unsubscribe,
but that they were choosing to hang on, because of [U….’s]
criticism (? not really sure, but looks like it). talking about that
it’s difficult to organize things over the net. (the criticism that
[U……] has been bringing in here.)
it’s hard to be the one coming out with criticism because there are
always people behaving really defensively.
and most of the defensive reactions coming out, create an atmosphere
where it’s difficult for people to speak.
i received this mail today:
thanks for your message. At the moment, I find it difficult to write
on the list, since criticism is described as flame wars (I agree
criticism should be accepted as criticism). I think your mails contain
very valuable thoughts.
Please keep up your strength, also with the Helsinki squatting scene.
[C….] in Frankfurt was also saying that she wouldn’t have the nerve to
enter a discussion here.
i think [U…..] was really emotional and reacting strongly. but
there was also about zero support in bringing in criticism. and people
starting to silence almost immediately. and then create a lynchmob.
i really don’t see kicking [U….] out as the correct solution for this.
if speaking these concerns is not enough, and
if then signing on as an administrator would make me have a say in it,
hope to hear from you soon,
FROM MAXIGAS TO ME:
Subject: about [U….] off the list
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:00:17 +0200
> i feel a bit insecure writing to you, since i wrote you once before
> about the practical guide and didn’t get any reply.
the only mail i remember from you was about asking about the practical guide, to scan it and make PDF. i answered to you and pointed out that the PDF is online and gave the link. if there was any other mail please resend it.
> and that you had some criticism that you have some criticism towards
*about the decision*: when i kicked out [U……] — not as a ‘quick fix’ but after several month of consideration — i knew that there will be people who disagree with this decision. of course i will not revert my decision because i discover you don’t agree with it. but who took that decision and was it hierarchical or not? it was hierarchical and i took it. it’s quite a difficult thing, involving a lot of emotional stress, like using violence — i am not a pacifist but i believe in the diversity of tactics: that it is good to use violence but only in certain contexts. since it was totally evident that after weeks of havoc this community (horizontal or not!) cannot deal with the problem, and that two or three people drive 200 mailers into boredom
and unconcern and torture the others, i thought it is productive to make a hierarchical and individual decision.
*about list admin rights*: since i want to uphold my decision and i think you would subscribe [U…..] i don’t give you admin rights. more broadly speaking, i only give admin rights to people i trust, and especially people i trust about their ability to maintain useful discussion on a mailing list (among other more boring things). since you are already banned from a lot of communities i don’t think you are such a person.
> so i feel insecure about getting heard. and also about being taken
> seriously, without preconceptions of who and how i am.
about preconceptions: of course i have preconceptions about who you are. i use my past experiences to understand the world, and you do the same — not all things can be explained ‘a priori’. there is a difference between a cop saying ‘come here’ and a comrade saying ‘come here’:
i will generally run the opposite direction in the first case and come there in the second. your history is something that is hard to leave behind, all your past actions weight on your shoulders. (of course this is only one side of the story.)
> me, that you haven’t spoken out, just mentioned that you are feeling
> afraid for some reason, in a mail to [L……].
i think it is totally unfair to intimidate me and use all this emotional domination and even expect me to speak about my sufferings to you. you are free to torture people until they stop you but it is unfair to ask them to describe their sufferings. i find it really perverse and disgusting. it makes me scared. it is not good for me. i don’t want it. i think people have the right to define their limits and this is beyond my limit.
there was a reason why i spoke about it to [L…..] and not to you. if somebody is raped and traumatised she doesn’t start to talk to the raper but to somebody who can confort her. you will never be able to confort me because you have hurt me deeply even with your first sentences and i will never forget it all my life.
**you are not authorised to mention this part to anybody because i don’t want to live these experiences again, i don’t want to speak about them and i don’t want other people to know about them. i have the right to determine what happens to the information i disclose to you.**
FROM ME TO MAXIGAS:
i don’t know what my first sentenses to you were. i don’t remember.
me being banned from several communities is a gross exaggeration,
since it’s only from the Helsinki social centre scene (where men are
allowed to do whatever, including physical violence, without anything
being done. and the problem has been that i consider that to be a
problem and i speak about it.)
you talked to [L…..] about your feelings, but you also talked to me,
since i’m also on the list. and also to all the other 200 something
that are on the list. so it wasn’t a private conversation i was
i think kicking somebody out, without warning, and then not giving any
further reason for doing so, creates a really unpleasant feeling on
the mailing list. a bit of the same totalitarian system existing in
the Helsinki social centre project at the moment.
ps. i am admin on a couple of lists at the moment, one with about 400
subscribers. so i don’t really think that all communities have
problems with me.