Two persons chatting, part 2

by Milla — she=he

Today’s song: Make your own kind of music – Mama Cass Elliot 🙂

My name is Milla and i'm in some weird healing process at the moment, involving hermit-life in my room, spending a lot of time online, trying to not feel guilty about 'just existing' with no purpose whatsoever. I experience a lot of shame and guilt because of both internalized and external expectations of what my life is 'supposed to' be like. I want to drop out from the 'scene' but not really sure of how to do that. I want to experience some joy and meaning with what i say and do -- meanwhile there's a lot of blah blah happening. My life is pretty boring. When i think about it, i guess my hermit-life is pretty mainstream, so this could actually be a possible way of dropping out 😛

 

This is a continuation of this talk:

https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/feelings-and-needs-while-in-situation-waiting/

Daniel and i are talking about how we’re feeling about talking, and trying to reach some agreement on how and when to talk with one another. The sum-up would maybe be something like: This is a process that will change over time, and right now I’m working on myself a lot, going through pretty intense emotions and figuring out what i need and what i can do to not be completely unbalanced and reactive — I’m looking for healing. I want to experience connection with others, and I’m worn out at the moment, in need of a deep caring connection with myself, so it’s too painful and exhausting to try to dig out what other people go through, and Daniel does not want to open up too much, and is at the same time expressing wishes to contribute to my healing process, as well as feelings of frustration and confusion in relation to not knowing how to do that, and has also expressed fear of being ‘used’ as a ‘tool’ (i don’t know what feelings and needs are behind this expression [‘used’, ‘tool’] maybe it’s a longing to be seen and understood and to matter. these are general guesses out of my own experiences as a human being on earth, needs that i have when relating to other human beings, but only Daniel knows what is really going on for her. i can only guess.)

What can i say.. I’m confused and clueless, so no wonder if anybody reading this would feel the same.

.

signs used to make the conversation more coherent:

>> means: ‘your turn to talk’

% >> means: ‘i’m shortly interrupting your speaking turn to ask or answer a question, or for a short (possibly ‘relevant’) comment’

.

[01:02] <millaa> i’m ready whenever you are
[01:02] <millaa>
[01:02] <VazsonyiD> you here?
[01:02] <VazsonyiD>
[01:02] <millaa> yes
[01:02] <millaa>
[01:05] <VazsonyiD> so we shoud agree on a time frame
[01:06] <VazsonyiD> like how often should we talk
[01:06] <VazsonyiD> once a week?
[01:06] <VazsonyiD>
[01:06] <millaa> i have some questions first, if it’s okay with you?
[01:06] <millaa>
[01:07] <VazsonyiD> ok
[01:07] <VazsonyiD>
[01:08] <millaa> so i start with this: you expressed confusion before, do you have any direct questions to ask me? i would like to help in making things clear.
[01:08] <millaa>
[01:10] <VazsonyiD> there are so many triggers related to me
[01:10] <VazsonyiD> i cant understand why would it be healing to talk to me
[01:10] <VazsonyiD>
[01:11] <millaa> would you like to rephrase what you just said into a question? it would help me in understanding what you are asking for.
[01:11] <millaa>
[01:13] <VazsonyiD> how can i help to heal?
[01:13] <VazsonyiD>
[01:14] <millaa> in no longer avoiding having a talk that i wanted for a couple of years.
[01:14] <millaa> hearing me out.
[01:15] <millaa> and responding whatever comes up.
[01:15] <millaa> even better: that you reflect your feelings and needs openly.
[01:15] <millaa> that would keep me safe in this talk.
[01:15] <millaa> you speaking feelings and needs.
[01:15] <millaa> and saying concretely what you wish to happen.
[01:16] <millaa> is this clear enough?
[01:16] <millaa>
[01:18] <VazsonyiD> i only want half of it
[01:18] <VazsonyiD> or i can only agree with half of it
[01:19] <VazsonyiD> cause i didnt wish this whole thing to happen
[01:19] <VazsonyiD> so my feelings and needs are not for you to understand or to live up to
[01:19] <VazsonyiD> im not seeking a connection with you
[01:20] <VazsonyiD> i dont know if hearing you out is enough for you
[01:20] <VazsonyiD>
[01:21] <millaa> could you specify what the thing is that you didn’t wish to happen?
[01:21] <millaa>
[01:23] <VazsonyiD> well you completely randomly texted me
[01:24] <VazsonyiD> i went into talking ok
[01:24] <VazsonyiD> but it was not my intention
[01:24] <VazsonyiD>
[01:24] <millaa> you went against your own will?
[01:24] <millaa>
[01:25] <VazsonyiD> kinda
[01:25] <VazsonyiD>
[01:26] <millaa> and now you’re feeling vulnerable and confused of what to do? you want emotional safety?
[01:26] <millaa>
[01:26] <VazsonyiD> i want to see an end to this
[01:26] <VazsonyiD> i wanted it also years ago
[01:26] <VazsonyiD>
[01:27] <millaa> an end to talking about emc and our vulnerabilities?
[01:27] <millaa>
[01:28] <VazsonyiD> yes
[01:28] <VazsonyiD>
[01:29] <millaa> but you are ernest in your intent to help me healing?
[01:29] <millaa>
[01:29] <VazsonyiD> yes you are a human too
[01:29] <VazsonyiD> and i caused you harm
[01:29] <VazsonyiD> i understand that
[01:29] <VazsonyiD>
[01:29] <millaa> ok.
[01:29] <millaa> more questions.
[01:29] <millaa> or. confusion.
[01:30] <millaa> i experience it as ‘mixed messages’
[01:30] <millaa> when you say you want to help.
[01:30] <millaa> and to give me space, and to hear me out.
[01:30] <millaa> and at the same time you are saying things you don’t want.
[01:31] <millaa> like reading pages of me expressing myself openly about memories of moments i’ve had with you where i felt unsafe.
[01:31] <millaa> you say you don’t want to read pages of what i have to say.
[01:32] <millaa> and that gets me confused. and a bit stressed i guess.
[01:33] <millaa> also that when i say that my goal is healing
[01:33] <millaa> cause i see self-healing as the only realistic thing i can ask for
[01:34] <millaa> when i express this you say that you’re a tool being used for my cause.
[01:34] <millaa> i don’t understand that.
[01:34] <millaa> could you say something more about these things?
[01:34] <millaa>
[01:34] <VazsonyiD> i dont see where i fit in this discussion
[01:34] <VazsonyiD> thats why i say i feel like a tool
[01:35] <VazsonyiD> cause what you say could be my role in this talk i dont want/need
[01:36] <VazsonyiD> reading what you write
[01:36] <VazsonyiD> for me its the quantity that is problematic
[01:36] <VazsonyiD> you write really a lot
[01:36] <VazsonyiD> you could write several books on your life
[01:37] <VazsonyiD> you kinda do aswell
[01:37] <VazsonyiD> i have several books to read in my life
[01:38] <VazsonyiD> i can ask you to be shorter
[01:38] <VazsonyiD> if its not possible i dont know what can i do
[01:38] <VazsonyiD> i have limited brain capacity and time for all this
[01:38] <VazsonyiD> i cant make this my main activity in my everyday life
[01:38] <VazsonyiD>
[01:39] <millaa> i hear a need for relief. of all kinds of sorts.
[01:39] <millaa> and i can relate to that.
[01:39] <millaa> i like the idea of talking about the examples on skype.
[01:40] <millaa> i would like to have the talks recorded.
[01:40] <millaa> you said you did not want to befriend me on any social network.
[01:40] <millaa> my suggestion is that you create an account that you use temporarily only for this purpose.
[01:40] <millaa> what do you say about this idea?
[01:40] <millaa>
[01:42] <VazsonyiD> i can befriend you for the time of the talk
[01:43] <VazsonyiD>
[01:43] <millaa> you seem to be more tech than i. and i don’t really have any friends to ask. would you be willing to check what’s needed to make a recording of webcam and talk on skype?
[01:44] <millaa>
[01:46] <VazsonyiD> what do you need it for?
[01:46] <VazsonyiD> documentation on your website?
[01:46] <VazsonyiD>
[01:47] <millaa> yes. it’s to support me emotionally. when lacking community, the blog is kind of ‘there for me’.
[01:47] <millaa> it gives me safety.
[01:48] <millaa> kind of like a really good friend giving ‘sanity checks’.
[01:48] <millaa> was this clear enough?
[01:48] <millaa>
[01:50] <VazsonyiD> sure
[01:50] <VazsonyiD> im just not sure if i want to be a co-author to it
[01:50] <VazsonyiD>
[01:51] <millaa> could you specify what you mean?
[01:51] <millaa>
[01:53] <VazsonyiD> i value my face and voice
[01:54] <VazsonyiD> i dont think i would feel comfortable appearing on the blog in anything other than text
[01:54] <VazsonyiD> which i cannot avoid anyways
[01:54] <VazsonyiD>
[01:55] <millaa> would you be willing to make transcripts of what you say in the talks?
[01:55] <millaa>
[01:57] <VazsonyiD> the chat seems much simpler
[01:57] <VazsonyiD>
[01:57] <millaa> in text i can’t hear the tone of your voice.
[01:57] <millaa> some of your text seems ‘sarcastic’. this would be much easier to hear in a voice chat.
[01:58] <millaa> i would appreciate voice chat. i’m tired of writing all the time.
[01:58] <millaa>
[01:59] <VazsonyiD> me too
[02:00] <VazsonyiD> ok we can try skype
[02:00] <VazsonyiD> i dont know if it is possible
[02:01] <VazsonyiD> to record
[02:01] <VazsonyiD> i will check
[02:01] <VazsonyiD> when?
[02:01] <VazsonyiD>
[02:02] <millaa> are you agreeing to having recorded voice/cam talks between us posted on the blog?
[02:02] <millaa>
[02:02] <VazsonyiD> sure
[02:02] <VazsonyiD>
[02:03] <millaa> strange.
[02:03] <millaa> i experience relief.
[02:03] <millaa> workload lessened. which provides me with some of the ease i’ve been longing for.
[02:04] <millaa> also that you will check for ways of recording. active co-operation.
[02:04] <millaa> i feel.
[02:04] <millaa> something ‘positive’
[02:04] <millaa> like nice, or something.
[02:05] <millaa> i don’t know what to say.
[02:06] <millaa> thank you. i guess.
[02:06] <millaa> i value your support.
[02:06] <millaa>
[02:08] <VazsonyiD> im really tired
[02:08] <VazsonyiD> when should we have this talk?
[02:08] <VazsonyiD>
[02:09] <millaa> a couple of weeks from now. sometime after 21st.
[02:09] <millaa> i’m tired too.
[02:09] <millaa> difficult to think.
[02:10] <millaa> how about you get back to me within a week on how recording works, so i can fix all that on my end befor the talk.
[02:10] <millaa> i have windows xp. would you need more info than that?
[02:11] <millaa> how does this sound to you?
[02:11] <millaa>
[02:11] <VazsonyiD> no its enough info
[02:11] <VazsonyiD> what about the blog until then?
[02:11] <VazsonyiD>
[02:12] <millaa> i don’t understand. could you be more specific with what you are suggesting? and also say what info you need to find out about skype/recording?
[02:12] <millaa>
[02:13] <millaa> % sorry. noticed you said you didn’t need more info.
[02:14] <VazsonyiD> ummm
[02:14] <VazsonyiD> nothing
[02:15] <VazsonyiD> so i will tell you about the technical bla in a week
[02:15] <VazsonyiD> and then we will talk about when to have the skype thing
[02:15] <VazsonyiD> right?
[02:15] <VazsonyiD>
[02:16] <millaa> yes. where will you inform me? i will post this talk on the blog. you could post the technical bla in the comment section. yes?
[02:16] <millaa>
[02:17] <VazsonyiD> ok
[02:17] <VazsonyiD>
[02:19] <VazsonyiD> so good night then
[02:19] <VazsonyiD> i guess
[02:19] <millaa> i fear asking you. but i would really like to have the links to what your ex has posted on the net after breaking up with you. v told me about these videos. i’m not in any contact wtih her anymore, so i don’t have anyone else to ask. i would really like to have links to those vids.
[02:19] <VazsonyiD> if there is nothing else…
[02:20] <millaa> could you post the links somewhere?
[02:20] <millaa> here and now? possibly?
[02:20] <millaa>
[02:20] <VazsonyiD> ummm
[02:20] <VazsonyiD> what exactly? which ex?
[02:20] <VazsonyiD>
[02:21] <millaa> the one you told was your only love while you were together with the next woman who was your first poly-relation. dunno if this is clear enough?
[02:21] <millaa>
[02:23] <millaa> % v said she had posted stuff about how she was feeling after breaking up with you. i’m pretty sure you’ve seen the vids.
[02:24] <VazsonyiD> ok so you mean Réka i presume
[02:24] <VazsonyiD> i dont think she did videos like this
[02:24] <VazsonyiD> or if she did i would like to see them aswell
[02:24] <VazsonyiD> sounds interesting
[02:24] <VazsonyiD>
[02:24] <millaa> hmm.
[02:24] <VazsonyiD> %who told you this?
[02:25] <millaa> yes i mean reka. and v told me there was stuff like this. in hungarian. so i’m surprised you don’t know.
[02:25] <millaa> whatever. i’m tired. you say you don’t know. so.
[02:26] <millaa> before feb 11th you’ll let me know about tech stuff? yes?
[02:26] <millaa>
[02:27] <VazsonyiD> ok
[02:27] <VazsonyiD> bye then
[02:27] <VazsonyiD>
[02:28] <millaa> thanks. i’ve found this conversation supportive.
[02:28] <millaa> bye. take care.
[02:28] <millaa>

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31 Responses

  1. I found many programs that can record Skype conversations i heard this is one of the better ones:
    http://www.powergramo.com/

    but…
    after a lot of thinking i realized that my ambivalent feelings towards this recording had a deeper root
    i was lost between being ok and not being ok with the recording and couldnt explain it to myself (how can i agree and disagree with something at the same time?), but then i realized this is cause i am really ok with recording what im not ok with is seeing you and talking to you (like voice and image)
    cause i dont want you in my life so i dont want to see or hear you… its not that i suggest we dont do this… i guess i can restrain myself for while if it has some higher cause….
    i just wanted to be clear with myself and you too

  2. just to let anybody coming across this, know that Daniel has not been in contact after this chat. (today is feb 15th. we agreed on Daniel getting in touch before feb 11th) i’m a bit disappointed, and would have wished for a more open, honest approach to this talk from her side.

    i’ve chosen a public space to dialogue, since i’m low on trust, and frustrated with the history of open disregard of common agreements on Daniel’s part. having this happening here instead of in a private space, somehow gives me support. if this would have been in a private space i would have experienced hopelessness, shame, humiliation, and so on. now i feel ‘ok’ with it. hoping a bit that other women who might experience the same can find safety reading this, knowing that they are not crazy or ‘singled out’ by Daniel in having experienced this with her.

    and to Daniel: in spite of confusion and some sadness about what’s going on with you. i’m still open for making an effort to arrange ways of talking through the emc examples with you [my opinion is that you would learn something in the process], i’m still hoping for a way that would feel comfortable for the both of us. i guess this requires that both of speak up about what we want and need.

    get in touch whenever you feel it makes sense for you to start dealing with this. take care. bye.

  3. and, since it’s on my mind, this tiredness of ‘explaining explaining’, talking about vulnerable painful experiences with persons who do not seem to understand the message. (why do i do that?) this is something i have done now for years. and i don’t claim to understand the pain of anybody else. i don’t claim that my pain overrides the pain of anybody else. just speaking of what it’s like being me in interaction with others. i’m not claiming to speak in a way that would automatically make sense to anybody. (but i’m pretty sure that people read into it whatever they for whatever reasons choose to read into it)

    i’m just speaking about the pain of disconnection and what it’s like for me.

    if/when Daniel ‘remembers’ to get in touch (?!) that instead of me explaining the emc that has been used so far (or as Daniel puts it ‘writing several books’ about these ‘useful tools’) i would prefer if Daniel could try and put herself in my postiion and explain herself, the everyday male chauvnism she sees herself in the talk we’ve had so far (this would be a very useful practice and as well revealing of what would be useful for me to tell).

    i do carry a lot of hatred (sadness, hurt, prejudice, sense of injury done) towards Daniel and the whole conglomerate of persons making this non-confrontation possible (the men’s group, individuals around Daniel claiming the guy has no problems with sexism, labeling me: crazy).

    i don’t know if i will every be able to overcome this hatred. the hurt. the sadness. it’s sad that the only strategy that i can think of at the moment for me to get out of this, is to turn away from it all in disgust. daniel, maria, peter, maxigas, vlanto (who said i was the ‘enemy of freedom..) peter, gabor, vera, feri. these people exist for me as bits and pieces of a rock i could not climb over, there is no growth. no branches for me to hold on to. i understand that i need to look elsewhere in order to find the community i’m searching for. either there’s too much pain. or indifference, or the same as i have Hatred for there to be a real connection and understanding in this.

    I despise the system they are in. I hate it wholeheartedly and will not take any part in it. The key rule being: Ignore ignore ignore. Get some, take some. Make a line between the Good and Bad, the Crazy and Normal, the In and Out. Pretend everything is normal. Don’t listen to ‘strangers’. Don’t talk to ‘strangers’.Happy family.

    I hope some day i will get over the bitterness i feel. As well as the arrogance. I see their system as flawed and faulty. Boring. Unsafe. Dead.

    Maybe it’s just envy speaking. Wanting acceptance belonging, and seeing persons who somehow can make themeselves fit in, while i’m the weird one causing violent rejection, sexualized abuse, well-meaning hatred and indifference. All for the best.

    I’m a lonely weirdo, recluse, in a room just not ‘getting it”. That’s all. (Bitter sarcasm.. arrogance.. again.. while wondering why i have this hang-up on ‘community’ since i mostly experience pain in relation to the lack of it. even if i rid myself of violence, i would not have community. but possibly i would be more connected. with myself at least)

    h.e.a.d.a.c.h.e (horrible)

  4. hmm.

    “there is no growth. no branches for me to hold on to.”

    there’s been branches that i’ve grabbed on to, and they’ve broken off and tumbled down with me, in my hand, and i’m figuring out where to plant them so they can grow.

    i’m very grateful for the work done by the people getting the text everyday male chauvinism together. i don’t understand and disagree with their practice (like not being transparent with how they deal with confrontation, conflict, communication in relation to criticism of their practice — where’s the space for that??!!) this text in combination with a PRACTICE (transparent, mutual) is something i’m looking for, meanwhile i brood alone…

    pissed off at the ‘world’. full of hate and cynicism.

  5. what i’m looking for is something like this: clear method, something to find beauty in instead of pain and frustration and heartache.


    nose, head, body. a system that’s transparent and having clear results.

  6. maybe the individual is cleaning herself to rid herself of the smell of the hands that are holding her. dunno.

  7. wondering where is my message sent on feb11…
    it was about a skype recording tool (powergramo) and some feelings related to these chats and that what i feel towards having a skype conversation…
    did you consider it as a “non-response” and delete it? or is it a technical problem of some sort?

  8. i have not deleted any messages from you (at least not knowingly). i don’t know where the problem lies, i only know i haven’t seen nor read the message that you are referring to. i thought you had dropped out of the conversation.

    is this answer clear enough, or would you like to know something else in relation to this?

    could you re-send or re-tell the information that you are making references to? i am very interested in hearing what’s going on for you in this talk – and would really like to hear more about that.

  9. i went through the spam-filter on the blog and found your message and pressed the ‘not spam’ and ‘approve’ buttons. i’m guessing it ended up there because of the dot com link in it. (no real clue why, just guessing. i don’t know how the spam filter works)

    after reading your message:

    i’m relieved to hear that you (despite discomfort) are okay with continuing the emc talk over skype and having it recorded (using skype + recording and publishing in a public space, provides me with safety, ease and support).

    i’m feeling a bit disturbed though, when reading that you could put up with feelings of discomfort “if it has some higher cause” — which to me seems like you don’t really know why you are speaking with me about these things (emc) and that you might have some expectations on some miraculous outcome of these talks (eg ‘peace on earth’ or something such).

    would you be okay with erasing my interpretation by telling / specifying in your own words what you mean with “higher cause”?

  10. the point is that i dont seek a connection with you and i dont see this conversation as an important tool in my self-development therefore i have only
    “the higher cause” of trying to meet your expectations… maybe this “selflessness” is one of the causes why it is so hard for me to speak up… its hard to speak about myself when i dont really see this talk as being about me (in relation to what happened in the past yes, but it has very little to do with my present)

  11. it’s difficult for me to understand what you are saying. there’s a lot of question marks in me after reading your last comment. i choose to focus my attention on one thing:

    i hear that you are saying that a talk on everyday male chauvinism isn’t something that you consider to be important for your self-development (that you wouldn’t learn anything from this talk)?

    am i missing something?

  12. not “a” talk on EMC, but a talk “with you” is what i dont consider important for myself, but i realize this is not really about me
    the only thing you missed is that i dont see this in general terms…
    its something for you to heal… at least this is what i thought

  13. so, if i understand this correctly you are experiencing a lot of ‘negative’ feelings (anger? fear? hurt? disgust?) that are preventing you from learning something in this talk?

  14. negative feelings? not at the moment… while talking to you sometimes yes… anger at your social ignorance for instance… but i really have better things to do then sit at the computer all day and talk about things like this
    so i thought its better to focus on you finding something out for yourself… i dont see what can i find out for myself…

  15. i’m really confused. are you saying that you wouldn’t learn anything by talking through the everyday male chauvinism text with me?

    like i’m really curious about the social ignorance you mention, and i would like to know more. i would like to understand.

    the same goes with all kind of ignorance i have. what i’m confused about, is that i have a perspective that i figure you could learn from hearing, and that you are repeating that you won’t learn anything from this talk. are you certain of this – stating this as an absolute fact? or is it more that you are feeling confused – not really understanding the point of talk?

    is anything of this making any sense to you?

    could you explain with more words how you experience that a talk on emc wouldn’t be benificial for you (if this is what you are saying) — and as well say more about what your motivation is for having this talk?

    i will find out how to install the powergramo thingy next week. i’ll let you know when i got it working. i have mixed feelings about seeing you again, i appreciate you taking part in this process, i think it will help me resolve a lot of problems i’ve had for a long time on a deep level. i’m feeling a bit bothered that i currently live with the impression that you somehow seem like you are ‘coercing’ yourself into having this talk. [for instance the comment: “i really have better things to do”]

  16. of course im not saying i wouldnt be able to learn from you or you from me… what im saying is that i have tons of ppl around me who i can talk with about intimidation or sexual abuse or control mechanism inherent in the male social psyche or anything else and the only thing why im discussing this with you is, cause 2 years ago we were in hurtful relations and im trying to give you closure

    also its not so important to me that you understand how your demands two years ago in Budapest were ignorant of my social situation in many aspects (family relations, economic relations)
    if you really want i can try again although i have my doubts, cause when i tried to explain i couldnt get the message through… im kinda used to this surreal way of communicating with you (trying to explain the same thing 5x and still not reaching understanding)
    maybe this is the big difference: i dont really want to understand you my interpretations on things are enough they make sense to me
    yes in a way im coercing myself into this talk… this talk is for you… this is the only thing absolute for me at the moment in relation to you

  17. hello daniel,

    the sweet offering of closure touches a soft part of my heart. thank you. — also your offer to explain what i’m trying to understand – your reality, your take on things – is something i appreciate.

    i’m a bit confused and worried, as well as annoyed and frustrated when i read that you don’t want to understand me, and that you are happy with your interpretations of things.

    i’m curious what this talk will bring. i know it’s been healing for me so far. i’m more calm when speaking with you now. i’m getting a lot of work on myself done. i’m also more trusting that you will go through with it – and this newly experienced trust, gives me comfort.

    i’m having some computer problems i’m trying to get fixed. dunno how long it will take. but i’ll let you know as soon as i got skype and powergramo working.

    i keep forgetting to ask you about meditation: when you started with it, and what kind. could you answer that here in this comment thread, while i’m waiting to get the technical stuff working?

    • im not sure how familiar are you with the daily prayers of islam… its kind of a ritual that involves physical and spiritual exercise which soothes me
      also i take walks and stare into the sunset and sunrise
      nothing special

  18. interesting the many journeys people choose.

    so you are a muslim? praying 5 times a day? you repeat “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his prophet” several times a day?

  19. hi daniel,

    just letting you know, that this talk is important (helpful, healing) for me, and that i’m now looking for a cheap/free computer to make the skype-recordings possible/easy for me.

    i’m a bit overwhelmed at the moment, i will most likely have this sorted out in 2-3 weeks. i’ll get back to you.

    i wish you peace.

    ❤ milla

  20. ok great im currently writing my thesis paper to finish university so i will use that 2 weeks wisely

    i dont keep strict prayers or rituals rules are for making some habits fixed
    but otherwise i say it many times there is no god, but Allah and Muhammad is the last prophet… think about it for a while it has a great truth concealed within

  21. hello again,

    i’m still sorting out the computer stuff. plus my emotional-mental-physical health.

    anyhow. i know i how i would like for the talk with you to proceed. it’s based on nvc –

    something that you have kept repeating is that you have no wish to understand what is going on for me, and that you are content with your understanding of things — and i understand from what you say that you experience that your understanding of things are in some way in conflict with my understanding of things. if i haven’t understood this correctly – then i would appreciate if you would say what i got wrong.

    a part of what i would experience as healing would be for you to be able to fully hear me out. and i believe that you might be able to do that if i first try to hear you out. at least i figure there would be a greater chance of this to happen, that you would hear me – if you would experience that you yourself are heard and understood.

    so what i would like to try out looks something like this:

    — i might ask you some questions.. you answer.. or you start speaking by yourself.. and then

    1) i reflect back what i hear you say — and you go through the hard work of correcting the focus/facts/missing pieces in my reflections, anything that doesn’t fit in with what you wanted to say, you say “no, i was saying that…” as well as giving feedback on what i reflect correctly “yes, this is what i meant”.

    this process can be pretty ‘heavy’ – also: long – but at least it leads to some sort of real understanding.

    2) during this process i will also check with you, and you can also ask me yourself, if you want to hear how i receive what you say (what i think and feel in relation to what you are saying). so every once in a while i will ask “would you like to hear how i react to what you say?” or something like that, and then it’s up to you to decide if you want to go on talking yourself, or if you want to hear what i have to say.

    and when i say something, then i would like to hear you reflect back what you hear me say, so i have an opportunity to understand how you hear me and how you receive my words. so these are two different things that i will ask: 1) “can you say what you heard me say?” and 2) “would you be okay saying what you were thinking/feeling when you heard me say that?”

    REASONS for using this method: Leads to a real /better understanding of what is going on. And i would really like to understand what is going on for you before i continue ‘spilling my guts’.

    So what I’m suggesting is – since you expressed willingness to speak about the things that you are disturbed by in relation to me – that we start talking about that when we’re on skype.

    I’m making an effort to be clear, and still i’m not sure how i’m received by you, so would you be okay repeating in your own words what you heard me suggest and as well say how you feel about that – if you’re okay with the suggestion?

    take care,
    milla

  22. 1. i hear you want mutual understanding through discussion
    2. for me the goal is still to hear you out and not be heard or reach some common understanding
    these two things are different…
    what end product would you like to have?
    i want that everything is clear and settled and then we can forget eachother
    im willing to take responsibility for my actions in the past, but im not here to make friends

    • How i understood what you said, some of what i say may come out a bit ‘blunt’, i have a feminist interpretative filter on when i read you, and it’s at the moment difficult to ‘shut it off’, so i ask you to be aware of that, and correct the things i say where you don’t recognize yourself:

      1. Your understanding of my intentions with this talk is that we both hear one another out, and understand what the other is saying and connect with where the other is coming from (if this is what you’re saying, than I would say that I agree with this. Did i understand you right?)

      2. You’re intention at the current moment is to let me speak. Your aim in this is not mutuality nor understanding. (Do i understand this correctly?)

      3. You want to make clear that you have no wish to create space for me in your life – you want it to be clear that this talk is an exception and that you wish to discontinue the interaction when this talk is over. (Did i get this?)

      4. You want to assume responsibility for and understand the effects of your actions. (Is this what you’re saying?)

      5. You are asking me what i would like to get out of this talk. (Yes?)

      Was there something i missed? misunderstood?

  23. back to the EU with net access again…

    1. yes correct

    2. yes aha

    3. yes thats it

    4. yes yes

    5. i think i have a fair enough picture of that, but if you think there is something to add pls do

  24. thank you for your brief and clear response.

    1. i would like to test your assumption, on that you have a reasonable understanding of what i hope to receive from this talk — would you be okay stating more specifically what your idea of my wishes are?

    after after this i could say: yes – or: inform you further.

    2. i’m also wondering if you would be okay hearing how i received your -second to last- response?

    3. and as well wondering if there’s something more you would like to say/ask?

  25. to take a jump ahead – the type of communication i would love to have:

  26. daniel,

    i hear in what you say that you long for peace

    PLEASE NOTE:: (and it’s painful for me to hear you repeat that you really really really really really don’t want me and whatever it is that i represent to you in your life, so could you please PLEASE realize that i GET the message and STOP repeating that – cause it’s for me like you would be saying “you’re ugly – go away – you don’t belong here” and that repeatedly have that in my face while i try to say: “Like, Daniel, hey i feel really vulnerable and i would like to talk with you about stuff that was painful for me, and that i’m still years later on an open wound about, and i would like for you to hear me out about that, that’s all – that’s all i every wanted” — so, again, like i really GET it and i AGREE that WE WILL NOT TALK AFTER HAVING HAD THE TALK WITH EMC OVER AND DONE WITH)

    so, again, as i started… what i figure you want to receive with your strategy is inner/outer PEACE (i don’t know if that’s it, but at least im guessing it might be something like that, at least that’s what i would like to feel, and it’s causing me a lot of stress trying to get the technical stuff fixed to have the talks recorded.

    i don’t really have friends. i mostly sit in my room. (mental health problems and general alienation from anything that is going on. big time depression. numbness that occasionally burst into crying – that’s what i do in my room) the few times i go out it’s because of nvc practice – that’s the only thing meaning anything for me right now. so i figure that you might have a better network – people to ask for help – so

    would you have a possibility on your end to get the talks recorded, and to upload them somewhere on the net, where they would be available for me to copy?

    i’m thinking about this conflict constantly – it’s hell – and there’s a lot of despair, hurt, sadness for me –

    whatever your lifesituation is (as i assume anybody has their fair share of miscommunication and disconnection and material strifes) if you have any possibility of getting that done – then we can both move towards that space of peace.

    could you repeat what you heard me say? you doing that would make me feel safer in knowing that i actually managed to convey the message i wanted to pass on.

  27. […] “Like, Daniel, hey i feel really vulnerable and i would like to talk with you about stuff that was pa…” […]

  28. […] “i have tons of ppl around me who i can talk with about intimidation or sexual abuse or control mecha…“ […]

  29. i see this as well being about who shares networks with who [and why/why not] (what values are ‘okay’/’not okay’, what topics are ‘real’/’non-topics’, who is ‘in’/’out’)

    so i re-posted the same request as above here:
    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/are-you-willing-to-share-your-network/

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