Two persons chatting

by Milla — she=he

This is a continuation of the talk that was decided upon here:

[12:44] *** millaa [] has joined #another_me
[12:44] *** millaa
[12:48] *** Vazsonyi_D [] has joined #another_me
[12:49] <Vazsonyi_D> hi
[12:49] <millaa> hi. i’m nervous. and a bit scared. dunno what to do about it. how are you?
[12:52] <Vazsonyi_D> well
[12:52] <Vazsonyi_D> im sick
[12:53] <Vazsonyi_D> very low on energy
[12:53] <Vazsonyi_D> hard to feel anything else than mucus inside
[12:53] <Vazsonyi_D> but at least not nervous
[12:53] <Vazsonyi_D> im not sure what is the point of this
[12:54] <Vazsonyi_D> but lets see im fairly open
[12:54] <Vazsonyi_D> how should we do it?
[12:55] <millaa> i would like to use a talking stick ” – ” and the ‘answer, correct things’ sign ” % “. are you okay with that?
[12:56] <Vazsonyi_D> aha
[12:56] <Vazsonyi_D>
[12:58] <millaa> weird.
[12:58] <millaa> it disappeared..
[12:58] <millaa> i would also like to split the talk into two parts. one where i get to talk about the things that i’ve mentioned before that would make a talk with you more safe for me (agree on a common method, time line, something that makes sense for both).
[12:58] <millaa> anyhow.
[12:58] <millaa> ah.. there it is..
[13:00] <millaa> as i said: two parts. one where i ‘take the lead’ and the other where you talk about whatever is important for (or just present, in) you currently. would you be okay with that?
[13:00] <millaa>
[13:00] <Vazsonyi_D> sure
[13:00] <Vazsonyi_D> do you want to start?
[13:00] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:01] <millaa> i would like to start with deciding a time for how long we will have this chat. is this okay with you? and also i would like for you to start ‘taking the lead’. does this work for you?
[13:01] <millaa>
[13:02] <Vazsonyi_D> i thought you wanted to talk first
[13:03] <Vazsonyi_D> then me
[13:03] <Vazsonyi_D> this chat?
[13:03] <Vazsonyi_D> mmmm… how long? several hours guessing from 2 years ago
[13:03] <Vazsonyi_D> 5 hours?
[13:03] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:04] <millaa> i’m meeting with a person two hours from now. how about an hour and a half?
[13:05] <millaa> i didn’t understand your question “this chat?” could you explain this further?
[13:05] <millaa>
[13:07] <Vazsonyi_D> i meant how long for this chat
[13:08] <Vazsonyi_D> yes its ok the hour and a half
[13:08] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont have much to say anyways
[13:08] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:10] <millaa> so, we are agreeing that this chat will end an hour and half from now? and that you take the lead in the first part? that you lead the conversation for let’s say half an hour? are you okay with all this?
[13:10] <millaa>
[13:10] <Vazsonyi_D> ummm
[13:10] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont know if i can talk for half an hour
[13:10] <Vazsonyi_D> about what?
[13:10] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:11] <millaa> i hear that you are feeling confused? maybe ’empty’? not really sure of what you’re here for? is this correct?
[13:11] <millaa>
[13:12] <Vazsonyi_D> kinda
[13:12] <Vazsonyi_D> but partly its the sickness
[13:13] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont think i could talk about anything continously and coherently for half an hour now
[13:13] <Vazsonyi_D> but yes i have no idea how to take the lead in a conversation with you
[13:13] <Vazsonyi_D> especially since i understood your request that you set the frames for this talk
[13:14] <Vazsonyi_D> ‘method’, ‘timeline’
[13:14] <Vazsonyi_D> as far as i understood we are talking, cause you randomly texted me while being drunk a few months ago which still confuses me
[13:15] <Vazsonyi_D> and the only topic we could come up with in between is to ‘set the record straight’
[13:15] <Vazsonyi_D> meaning that i hear you out
[13:15] <Vazsonyi_D> give you space
[13:15] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:17] <millaa> do you have some questions in relation to what you are feeling puzzled about? about the text message?
[13:17] <millaa>
[13:20] <Vazsonyi_D> im not sure why you wrote at all
[13:20] <Vazsonyi_D> why i come to your mind
[13:20] <Vazsonyi_D> the part about the hurting i get i think
[13:20] <Vazsonyi_D> but that message said something like ‘what could have been’
[13:21] <Vazsonyi_D> why do you have romantic thoughts about me that i dont get
[13:21] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:24] <millaa> you said: “”i understood your request that you set the frames for this talk”. do you understand my request as me deciding by myself how this talk is to be done? you don’t feel you have any say in this?
[13:24] <millaa>
[13:26] <Vazsonyi_D> yes i do
[13:26] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont want to talk years about this subject
[13:26] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont know how to do it in an organized fashion
[13:26] <Vazsonyi_D> ‘my say’ in it would to minimize the time frame as much as possible
[13:27] <Vazsonyi_D> and to somehow do it in a way that i dont have to spend entire afternoons on reading 15 word pages of text
[13:27] <Vazsonyi_D> other than this
[13:27] <Vazsonyi_D> nothing
[13:27] <Vazsonyi_D> so yes go ahead
[13:27] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:28] <millaa> could you put this into postiive wordings? instead of saying what you don’t want, say what you would wish to happen?
[13:28] <millaa>
[13:31] <Vazsonyi_D> aha
[13:31] <Vazsonyi_D> can you please go ahead with your ideas about how this talk should look like? (time, method)
[13:31] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:32] <millaa> well. like you, i would also like to ‘move on’. put this hurt behind, or overcome it somehow.
[13:34] <millaa> i would like to have a clear time frame, and agreement on how the talk is done, in order for me to experience safety and more ease in this.
[13:35] <millaa> i experience shame when speaking of love and being vulnerable in a setting where i continuously get triggered by the unsafety of how to move this talk on.
[13:36] <millaa> so knowing when and how would make this less shameful for me.
[13:38] <millaa> i didn’t like your suggestion on posting many emc examples at the same time, because i’ve had a lot of hurt in doing work (too much effort than i want to put into it) on posting the examples. and then writing from deep inside of situations and behavior that were damaging for me.
[13:39] <millaa> while you can easily avoid exposing yourself or being vulnerable, and you can at any moment choose to step away from the talk. which is a reality i’ve lived with for years now.
[13:40] <millaa> the emc talk is important to me. cause i don’t want to experience the powerlessness i did with you (and that i experience with most people)
[13:40] <millaa> i want to be capable to love in an open, caring and vulnerable way.
[13:42] <millaa> me interacting with you for this talk, will uncover many of my triggers. i can understand myself better. and not turn into a desperate sobbing angry mess.. i want to experience choice in any given situation. not get caught up in my feelings.
[13:42] <millaa> i want to talk about what happened in order to heal.
[13:43] <millaa> and i want to do it in a way so you experience there’s space for you to say whatever is going on inside you.
[13:43] <millaa> i would like for you to be open in this process.
[13:43] <millaa> so. i appreciate what you say.
[13:43] <millaa> “not 15 pages”
[13:44] <millaa> “i’m confused about your motives”
[13:44] <millaa> “not so much time listening to you”
[13:45] <millaa> “i don’t know how to do this in an organized way”
[13:45] <millaa> your time leading the conversation is up.. what did you hear me say?
[13:45] <millaa>
[13:47] <Vazsonyi_D> my time in leading the conversation?
[13:47] <Vazsonyi_D> did i lead it?
[13:48] <Vazsonyi_D> what i hear is confusing to me
[13:48] <Vazsonyi_D> you say you feel shame and hurt during our talks
[13:48] <Vazsonyi_D> yet you expect it to be healing
[13:48] <Vazsonyi_D> this is highly confusing to me
[13:51] <Vazsonyi_D> you want to learn something about yourself
[13:51] <Vazsonyi_D> this i get
[13:51] <Vazsonyi_D> why am i needed for this?
[13:52] <Vazsonyi_D>
[13:54] <millaa> about leading the conversation.. well. i just let you start the talk. cause i didn’t want to get into a meta conversation about making a decision about it. i would find it exhausting and frustrating.
[13:54] <millaa> i set the timer on my phone. and it beeped when i made the comment on time.
[13:55] <millaa> sorry about that. that was me living in my universe. not expressing myself clearly.
[13:55] <millaa> about talking with you being healing.
[13:55] <millaa> healing for me is about me changing myself.
[13:56] <millaa> taking responsibility for my actions.
[13:56] <millaa> i’ve behaved many times over in ways i’m not proud of.
[13:56] <millaa> and i’ve done it from an emotional space where i’ve expereinced great powerlessness.
[13:57] <millaa> not experiencing choice. just hurt. sadness. fear. anger.
[13:58] <millaa> from the space most of us have experienced. a place where there is a lot of shame from the knowledge that the people around us are too wrapped up in their own pain to recognize the pain they cause in others.
[13:58] <millaa> i don’t want to take part in yet another ‘hamlet’ or whatever drama. i want to do things differently.
[13:58] <millaa> i don’t want to blame you for being this and that and behaving like this and that.
[13:59] <millaa> i want to find out what it is that is ‘missing’ in me, and how i can fill the space in me that is lacking.
[13:59] <millaa> without expectations on others to care.
[13:59] <millaa> i feel vulnerable in relation to you.
[14:00] <millaa> so that’s a good space for me to start figuring out what i’m lacking.
[14:00] <millaa> like. a concrete example.
[14:01] <millaa> you suggesting a hungarian chat site for us to have this talk.
[14:01] <millaa> i felt exhausted.
[14:01] <millaa> in my mind i was thinking that you only see yourself and your own comfort in interaction with others.
[14:01] <millaa> i was blaming.
[14:01] <millaa> felt triggered. hurt. scared. shame.
[14:02] <millaa> instead of taking responsibility for my feelings and just seeing that what i wish for is active cooperation.
[14:02] <millaa> to know that my needs matter.
[14:02] <millaa> ease.
[14:02] <millaa> i don’t know if this is clear.
[14:04] <millaa> i want to talk with you, because i feel a lot in relation to what you do, don’t do, say, don’t say. and that’s a good place for me to be in order to get over these deeply rooted feelings of shame and not ‘being worth love’.
[14:04] <millaa> does this make it any clearer to you?
[14:04] <millaa>
[14:06] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont see what is wrong with a hungarian chat site
[14:06] <Vazsonyi_D> all simple chat programmes work in the exact same way you login and you are there
[14:06] <Vazsonyi_D> it was completely random
[14:06] <Vazsonyi_D> you could have suggested a pakistani one i wouldnt have cared
[14:07] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont see how the category of ‘active cooperation’ can apply to selecting a chat program
[14:08] <Vazsonyi_D> so you want to use me as a tool for self-development?
[14:09] <Vazsonyi_D> again contradictions in my head
[14:09] <Vazsonyi_D> how does active cooperation match with me being a tool for your causes
[14:10] <Vazsonyi_D> so somehow i should guess what you lack?
[14:10] <Vazsonyi_D> you want to do this with me, cause you think i know you to some extent?
[14:12] <Vazsonyi_D> i have no idea what to say
[14:12] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont feel a lot about what you do or dont do or say or dont say
[14:12] <Vazsonyi_D> but i guess this is clear
[14:12] <Vazsonyi_D> not sure if it matters
[14:13] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont know how much i have to do with your feelings of shame and worthlessness
[14:13] <Vazsonyi_D> im sad that you feel that way
[14:13] <Vazsonyi_D> this is still very far away from me
[14:13] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:14] <millaa> just checking if i understood what you said correctly: you feel blamed cause i don’t know how chat programs work and need clear instructions in order to be able to sign in?
[14:14] <millaa>
[14:15] <Vazsonyi_D> i feel weird, cause you give deep meaning to something thats completely small
[14:15] <Vazsonyi_D> in my eyes
[14:16] <Vazsonyi_D> im surprised how different things trigger us
[14:16] <Vazsonyi_D> blamed?
[14:17] <Vazsonyi_D> im not sure if this is being blamed what i feel
[14:17] <Vazsonyi_D> i feel like an alien
[14:17] <millaa> % you used the word “wrong” which i guessed indicated feeling blamed.
[14:18] <Vazsonyi_D> its related to you saying you feel hurt, scared and shameful
[14:19] <Vazsonyi_D> about a chat program
[14:19] <Vazsonyi_D> this is something completely beyond
[14:19] <Vazsonyi_D> me
[14:19] <Vazsonyi_D> obviously its something more
[14:19] <Vazsonyi_D> some general state of being
[14:20] <Vazsonyi_D> but it definitely tells me that things are not going to go easy
[14:20] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:22] <millaa> as i understand it you experience confusion when i speak of details that trigger memories from our past interaction? you don’t understand how i can feel messed up in relation to emc?
[14:22] <millaa>
[14:24] <Vazsonyi_D> in relation to EMC yes
[14:25] <Vazsonyi_D> in relation to a chat program no
[14:25] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:26] <millaa> i feel a bit sad speaking with you now. since you repeat surprise in the example i brought up, which i one out of many possible examples.
[14:26] <millaa> and maybe there’s anger there as well.
[14:27] <millaa> that you disagree with what i experience as ‘active co-operation’ and the fears i have of disconnection.
[14:28] <millaa> one word that came up before was ‘consideration’
[14:28] <millaa> and ‘awareness’
[14:28] <millaa> consideration for how stressful it is to talk about these things that are still active and alive in me. what i experienced with you and the community you’re involved in.
[14:29] <millaa> and awareness that not everybody knows how a chat program works.
[14:30] <millaa> it’s an hour and half later.
[14:30] <millaa> to answer your question.
[14:30] <millaa> you said: “you want to do this with me, cause you think i know you to some extent?”
[14:31] <millaa> i don’t think you know me. or that i know you.
[14:31] <millaa> i think we have similar patterns in being hurt. and other ways where these patterns are very different.
[14:32] <millaa> i think that if we would know one another, there would be no problems experienced in the communication.
[14:32] <millaa> our miscommunication is ‘proof’ enough that we don’t know one another.
[14:33] <millaa> i wouldn’t mind knowing you. understand.
[14:33] <millaa> i don’t see you as a tool.
[14:33] <millaa> i don’t want to ‘use’ you.
[14:33] <millaa> and i don’t want to ‘read your mind’ or ‘live up to you unspoken expectations’ either.
[14:34] <millaa> i want to be able to be myself fully. and be connected with myself in your presence. in spite of what has happened.
[14:34] <millaa> in spite of what i have done. in spite of what you have done.
[14:35] <millaa> i want to get over ‘romantic illusions’ and just go on living. knowing what heals and aware of what hurts.
[14:35] <millaa> you are not a tool to me.
[14:35] <millaa> you are someone i don’t know.
[14:36] <millaa> i can’t demand that you open up.
[14:36] <millaa> i can’t demand that you would see me for what i am.
[14:36] <millaa> i can’t ‘make’ you anything. and you can’t ‘make’ me anything.
[14:37] <millaa> how come you are taking part in this talk with me? what is your motivation to start talking with me?
[14:37] <millaa>
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> nothing really
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> if i can help you get over something its fine
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> if i cant then lets stop talking
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> sofar im leaning towards the latter
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> there are no secrets
[14:38] <Vazsonyi_D> there are no unspoken wants
[14:39] <Vazsonyi_D> you dont have to read my mind
[14:39] <Vazsonyi_D> i dont want to get to know you more than i know you
[14:39] <Vazsonyi_D> sorry for not being aware of you not knowing stuff about chatting
[14:40] <Vazsonyi_D> im glad that you dont see me as a tool
[14:40] <Vazsonyi_D> what is ‘go on living’ for you?
[14:41] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:42] <millaa> to be able to stay in the present, in the here and now, and to enjoy it.
[14:42] <millaa> anyhow. the one and a half hour is up.
[14:43] <millaa> i appreciate you expressing that you wish to take part in my healing process. and also that you express that it’s important for you to not be ‘used’.
[14:44] <millaa> i hope you will express yourself throughout in whatever you feel discomfort with.
[14:44] <millaa> and that you will be able to take in what i say in a way that promotes expanded awareness for you instead of feeling ‘under attack’.
[14:44] <millaa> i’m a bit tired. and sad right now.
[14:45] <millaa> i would like to get to something concrete about ‘method’ ‘time line’.
[14:45] <millaa> could we have another talk in a few days. and focus entirely on that? coming up with concrete ideas? would you be okay with that?
[14:45] <millaa>
[14:46] <Vazsonyi_D> sure
[14:46] <Vazsonyi_D> when?
[14:46] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:46] <millaa> or later this evening? i would like to get it done as soon as possible.
[14:46] <millaa>
[14:47] <Vazsonyi_D> midnight your time?
[14:47] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:47] <millaa> ok
[14:47] <millaa>
[14:49] <Vazsonyi_D> here its ok i guess…
[14:49] <Vazsonyi_D> so see you
[14:49] <Vazsonyi_D>
[14:49] <millaa> ok. see you later. thanks for having this talk.
[14:49] <millaa>
[14:50] *** Vazsonyi_D [] has quit [“ “]


2 Responses

  1. it’s almost a quarter past midnight in finland. i just sent an sms to daniel:

    “Hi. It’s midnight in finland. Are you showing up?”

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