Two persons talking emc: 1.1 Intimidation

by Milla — she=he

Something Warm in the cold climate of Hostile Takeovers.

.Today’s song: Moloko–Bankrupt Emotionally

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This is a continuation of this talk: Click here.

Out of coincidence (desperation? curiosity?) came about a conversation between two persons about a past/present not so pleasant. The form and frame of this talk is still taking shape. My suggestions so far has been to speak about the experiences of our relation through the examples given in a text called Everyday Male Chauvinism (emc). I will quote one example after the other in blog posts, and Daniel and I will dialogue in the comment section. Another suggestion I’m making here and now, is for Daniel to be the one to start the talks, since I’m having problems with understanding how a men’s group blocking dialogue with women, seemingly not interested in the women’s perspective, can work out their issues with male supremacy on their own. Therefor, instead of me saying “I felt this and this about that and that”, and possibly getting a “okay, I hear that” as a response, I would like to start with understanding how men can use the EMC text as a tool to understand [the effects of] their behavior without hearing out what the women they are relating to (or actively blocking dialogue with) have to say.

So, if you agree with this Daniel, you are welcome to be the first to give concrete, specific example/s of how/if ‘intimidation’ was manifested in our relation:

1.1 Intimidation

This is the borderline between psychic violence and everyday male chauvinism. A manoeuvre that causes fear and which the man uses after he has created his, real or imagined, reputation as a violent or aggressive individual.

The manoeuvre can consist of any threatening sign (look, tone of voice, posture, wording or gesture) through which the man lets the woman know that if she is not obedient “something” will happen. In order to make the signal credible, a power demonstration of physical, sexual or financial nature is needed from time to time.

In the long term, it usually leads to the man achieving that the woman does not want him to do anything when he does not feel like it and so he need not be at the service of anyone but himself.

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26 Responses

  1. i accept taking the first step in talking
    also i would like to add that im definitely interested in your perspective and in a female perspective in general
    about the group: from what they told earlier its clear to me that they are interested in womens perspective aswell, but they dont want to enter this conversation and previous ones initiated by you (to me this says they specifically dont want to talk to you, but you should ask them if this bothers you so much i dont know)
    as i said this is my shit so it only concerns the group to extent that im a part of it… the other ppl dont even know you as far as i know except for Peter… but enough about the group from my side…

    i dont know if i appear to be a violent and aggressive individual… i think i am definitely not one i can count the physically violent situations i actively took part in during my life on one hand (actually, cause there are 5 i can recall)
    but i also understand that intimidation is not the direct use of force… i do think that i behave in a masculine way (body language, facial expressions) and i do see the connection between this and a person socialized in a feminine way being afraid in my presence
    in our relations i know that my approach to nudity and promiscuity was pretty scary for you and im sorry for that
    i see what has happened between us as fairly random, flirty, like a really long one night stand… i dont approve of this kind of behavior and i think this falls definitely into the category of sexual intimidation
    i dont know what kind of “advantages” i got out of this in our relations… if yes then most probably im not aware of them…

    oh and sorry that this took so long to answer… i guess you know from the past that i take time to answer complicated things… anyway this is what i thought up… my suggestion is that you could even write a series of these posts and then i can answer them all at once over longer periods of time, cause they are connected to eachother anyways

  2. hi daniel,

    first of all i would like to express CLEARLY that i DO NOT speak nvc, even though i’m in a learning process of that. I use labeling words. I Evaluate. I Do not entirely speak out of my own feelings and needs but put blame and judgment in what others do/speak/think. so please do not have any expectations of feeling ‘okay’ and ‘fine’ and very happy reading whatever i say (don’t have any such expectations even though i would be fluen in nvc — everybody walks around in their individual trigger landscapes). so PLEASE take responsibility for your own feelings and needs and express them as openly as possible, plus make Specific requests on what would make this ‘conversation’ better [not ask: Could you be more ‘nice’, but say what specific action i could perform that you would perceive as ‘nice’. for instance: “Smile”. or “could you tell me how you’re feeling and why?” or something)

    i appreciate you participating in this talk, in spite of a lot of (deeply, seriously) negative and conflicting feelings i go through in relation to that. (you might have noticed the sleazy spam dedication and references to how i felt/feel relating to you in the blog post about poly speed dating. if there’s something in that or anything else, that you feel disturbed/triggered by, feel free to ask any questions in relation to any of the hurt and bitterness expressed all over this blog. in comparison with you i’m an ‘open book’.)

    one (.one.) of the triggering sentences in the response you gave above was “i guess you know from the past that i take time to answer complicated things”

    my experience with you, has been that you more than [let’s say a specific number not to ‘generalize’] 55 times have left my questions and requests for dealing with something, unanswered, and that you have stated (although vaguely, but still) in a conversation/chat we had, that you deliberately stay ‘vague’ (don’t give specific answers to direct questions) cause this works to your ‘advantage’. [whatever this ‘advantage’ then means in a love-less warped society]

    with this experience as a backdrop to the conversation we’re having now, i would like to say that i would feel immensely more safe if we take speaking turns [1. i say something 2. you say something. 3 i say something 4. you say something etc etc] therefor i will decline your request of talking more than one EMC example at the time [posting more emc examples at the same time], even though i agree with you that they are interlinked and overlap. we (dare i say we? both of us?) are having difficulties understanding where the other comes from, and having 5 different conversations/threads at the same time would not improve the quality of this talk, but instead worsen the possibilities for any real understanding or connection.

    i don’t have anything against you mentioning specific emc-examples in your response if you have a need for that. but would still stick with working them through one by one [make a blog post and then talk that specific example through in the comment section]. i would also like to set a time-limit for how long you wait in responding. would you have a concrete suggestion yourself on how much time you would need before saying anything? 3 weeks? 5? 2? i would like to have some sort of agreement on time. since there are several questions unanswered (more than 55) by you already on this blog, and i wouldn’t like to end up in a similar situation again. would you be okay with an agreed upon time limit when it comes to responding?

    having my concrete questions answered would increase a sense of my need for clarity taken into consideration. if you for some reason would not want to answer a specific question i would rather like to hear that said explicitly than just having the question unanswered. are you okay with this?

    i’m also asking you to think of and express if there is (or if you can’t think of any) way for things to be less ‘complicated’ for you? something i or you could do?

    could you also express what it is you mean with this word. what does it mean concretely?

    i experienced a bit of disappointment reading your response also, because i had requested Specific, Concrete examples, and i would like to restate this request. Could you mention specific situations you and i were both involved in, where this method was used? (what you did/said etc. An example: “i stood in front of you when coming out from the shower, and i looked at you sitting on the ground, i was naked and while i looked at you i was touching my penis. i didn’t speak. i didn’t ask if this was okay for you.”)

    i have more comments. and also things i disagree on. but i fear that the more words coming from me, the more ‘complicated’ it will get for you, so i would like to have the time-frame settled before going on speaking about (me giving) concrete examples.

    are you okay with responding to the questions i have here in this post, as well as responding to the questions and requests i made in the other comment thread –>

    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/two-persons-talking/#comment-1176

    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/two-persons-talking/#comment-1177

    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/two-persons-talking/#comment-1178

    before i give any further response to what you said?

    i hope this is not too confusing. if it is please ASK.

    milla

    • adding:

      in the concrete example mentioned above i experienced more confusion than fear. it was more the aftermath, and all the pieces put together that turned this into something i felt disgust (objectified sexual ‘thing’ to stand and masturbate in front of without checking consent), and sadness in relation to that.

      there are other occasions when i would say that there was Fear. and i would like to talk about that in relation to this example. but first: Your turn to respond to my previous post, and hopefully express your own ideas of functioning communication. (give some suggestions on what would be experienced as Easy/simple as opposed to Complicated).

      • to me this isn’t very complicated:

        http://xahlee.org/flatland/

        it’s just about getting a different perspective.

        and i’m not denying that i’m eager to understand yours. then i wouldn’t feel so weird and damaged in this talk. is my guess. unless people are just plain evil. but i don’t believe in that.

        ❤ and all other emotions that go through me

  3. hi daniel,

    i hope you trust when i say that i really appreciate that you for whatever reason are taking part in this conversation.

    this talk is frustrating and painful for me, and i would like to ‘see the end of the tunnel’.

    i have a lot of frustration, sadness, anger, hurt about this talk. i don’t have a lot of trust, plus experience that we speak from fairly different realites. which is something i experience a lot of pain with, when i don’t really have hopes of reconciliation / justice or that these realities will ever ‘meet’ in the sense of us having an understanding for one another’s behavior.

    i would feel more safe if we got an agreement on time limit for responses, since the emc examples are about 50-60 and if every example would take a month to ‘clear out’ / ‘talk over’ it would take about 5 years for us to have this conversation. i don’t want to spend 5 years talking about our past / present with you.

    could you help me in explaining what it is that you experience as complicated with this talk, and as well what would help you in speeding up your response?

    my concrete suggestion for time limit with this talk would be that i publish 3 emc examples every week, (in three different blog posts) and that you respond to all three of them within 7 days. this would mean that we got to finish the ‘talk’ in about 18 weeks. so after that you would be more clear on what i perceived as disturbing in our way of relating to one another. and i would have a clearer idea of ‘what is’ (meaning: hopefully dropped my fairly naive romantic fantasies about us ever making sense to one another, sharing life and love).

    i would like for this learning / sharing process to be a bit more efficient. are you okay with setting a time limit for responding + a clear time schedule for how this talk is done? are you okay with responding how you heard this request, and as well say what you think about the suggestions / make own concrete suggestions / objections etc within 3 days from now (today is january 3 2011). yes?

    after getting some sort of agreement on how to do this talk i will continue with speaking concrete examples of ‘intimidation’, hopefully contributing to your well-being and the well-being of other women reading this.

  4. hi hi ha ha. couldn’t wait. needed to get it out of my system. so here it is. my take on intimadation. i’m sure it’s not easy to understand, cause it’s a completely different reality than the one that you are in. (a reality that i don’t claim to understand. i don’t know what your issues are. if you feel like explaining it someday, i’m really curious to hear you out.)

    a short answer of the so called ‘advantage’ that you are asking yourself of (what advantages you get out of your relations). well. the thing that i stated very shortly at the end of the intimidation example:

    “the man achieving that the woman does not want him to do anything when he does not feel like it and so he need not be at the service of anyone but himself.”

    you had the advantage of being in full control over a selfish dead ‘love’. (i don’t see emc as ‘advantage’ just plain idiocy. that’s the thing that gets to me. you’ve had so many women willing to care for you and love you, and you haven’t been able to appreciate that and feed that, but instead you grab the shovel and start digging that hole, hoping that one day, there will be a woman falling into it instead of fighting her way out.. it’s so fucking weird. if i had all these people falling for me, willing to love me — wow! but you don’t have this perspective. i don’t ‘get’ your perspective. i don’t know if you do yourself.)

    LONG out-puor about (some) intimidation:

    we had chats before we met. you talked quite much about two women that you lived with in the same student dorm. you wanted to engage in some sort of relation with both of them. one of them didn’t seem affected by your advances. the other one you said wanted to share physical intimacy when she was drunk.once when you were both drunk, you were making out, and said that her ‘pretty little neck looks like it’s made for strangling’ and you asked her if you could choke her, and she said yes. you choked her, she was coughing and couldn’t get air. you stopped, and then you put your penis in her vagina for the first time. you had a talk with her later about this, and she didn’t remember having sex with you.

    the way you talked about how she wanted to be with you when she was drunk i experienced as intimidating. as well as the fact that you once choked her when she was drunk and intimate with you. it’s not real consent if the person does not want to be with you sober.

    another moment when i felt really freaked out, alone and scared, was when we chatted. i made a blog post about it afterwards:
    you said out of the blue: “im really a total antifeminist
    i just want to gain your trust cause i find you attractive”
    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/update-lack-of-empathy-trauma-hell-again-trust/

    i find this statement fairly scary nowadays as well, since you’ve told some women that you are feminist, but when i said i want to talk with you about stuff, then you’ve said that you “wouldn’t label yourself”. also that your history with your long-term relationship, as you told it yourself when i got to know you, was that you influenced her a lot politically, and that she then found her own interest in feminism [when you used the word feminism it sounded as something despicable], and that this was the ’cause’ for you breaking apart and her leaving you (meaning: you didn’t pick up on her interests.. and that inf fact her finding strength in feminist thought was something not strengthening your relationship, but that your disinterest in this and unwillingness to learn, was what caused her to ‘save herself’ instead of ‘saving the relationship’) yeah, this is full on interpretation, but, when we met in a public space in budapest. you me her and two more women. the way you greeted her, you sitting on a chair, she tenderly kissing you, not on the cheeks, but on the both sides right next to your mouth. she attentively breaking off her own conversation when you interrupted her, asking you what you want to say (man, you must have had such power in that relationship). and then comes the scary part for me, that you sit very close to me. and to assert your power, you point at me, as if i’m an inanimate object, in spite of there being 4 persons in the room, you are into some dynamic where only you and your ex is talking with one another. you sit close to me, and point at me, while looking at her, and you say: “i’m sitting close to her, cause i like her, she laughs at my jokes” [you are sitting next to a feminist activist, and talking with the woman who left you ‘because of feminism’, and now you are pointing at me as if i’m some sort of trophy — an antifeminist guy managing to bed a radical feminist — and not only that, but to behave in an extremely violent and aggressive fashion in a public space towards the women that are there with you without getting any shit for it. bravo! big achievement.}

    i was so in love with you, i was so alone and in need of love. i would have done anything for you. i went over my limits so many times. like when we were both naked and touching ourselves (you were the one starting with touching yourself) and then you announce that you are having a chat with another partner of yours while we’re doing this, and that she doesnt believe that what you are telling her is true (you are saying that we are doing something sexual without asking for consent from either one of us). you say that she doesnt beleive it is true because she doesn’t think that i would have sex with you since i’m a feminist.

    what is scary for me is not promisicuity but more the type of influence you can have on someone in love with you, and that you are okay with using that influence. also that you didn’t check for any consent at ANY time during the time with interacted in this way. you have many partners, and you didn’t talk about using protection, but ask me to take your dick in my mouth, never thinking that it might be useful having a condom on. i was so in love. i was so lonely and damaged. i was so afraid of losing you. so insecure emotionally and sexually. you talked yourself of having this type of influence on some women, that they can find it difficult to say no to you. when you chatted with one woman once over the internet, you called her ‘bitch’ cause she didn’t want to talk with you. and then you said that another woman that you were annoyed with her being in love with you, but that you spent intimate time with, sleeping over at her place sharing bed space, you said that she was great cause she never said no to you (you were in complete control). these kind of statements were scary. and it was scary that i was with you, being intimate with you while you were treating other women this way, and that the only reason that you were with me at that time was because i was insecure and didn’t make ‘demands’ on you. i was an ‘uncomplicated’ soft and warm body for you touch or reject completely according to your will. i wanted closeness and intimacy and i sacrificed my own will in that process. consent. safe sex. emotional safety. respect who cares about that .. i ‘had’ you, and i was in love – scared, unsafe, fearful that’s what i had and for some reason i was afraid of losing it. so i stopped existing.

    i’m sorry for not having been in better touch with myself. for not understanding that i was in love and how it was affecting me. for not understanding that emotional swamp i was in, slowly sinking deeper and deeper into the murky mess of ‘scared-unsafe-fearful’ eventually emerging completely and reaching bottom, not having any will to live, and when fighting my way back up, and out if it going through Anger, a thick layer of repressed bitter anger (sadness and hurt).

    nakedness in itself didn’t scare me. what scared me was the way you played different music tracks and how they became an opening for something that could be so powerful and healing but instead was a massive display of how you never said “i love you” but instead played, and teased, and had your own reality going on that i had no clue of what to do with. you played shakira “underneath your clothes” and after you started playing that song, that’s when you came out from the shower with no pants on, glancing at me, covering your front. then you asked me if it was ‘okay’. i was so attracted to you. i still am. i think your beautiful. what scares me is that you didn’t talk with me about that nudity, and what it was supposed to mean.

    you did the same thing with the woman from poland visiting in budapest. you were naked in the room with her (her in the bed.) you were flirting with her as well. and later you had ‘some sort of sex’ (you told to another woman. not me) what scares me is that you say openly that you have this control over some women, and when we talk about it you don’t want to recognize it, instead you say you feel violated by the women you seduce.

    fuck. i know this is a lot of text. i’m not thinking so much, mostly just writing whatever comes to mind. i don’t know if this makes any sense to you. i guess it doesnt. cause if it did you would have already ‘gotten it’ and i wouldn’t feel so sad and hurt in connection with you.

    probably there’s a million things that feel triggering to you. things you disagree wtih. dunno.

    again. intimidation. when chatting with you.. hmm. i’ll use the example i heard from one woman about nudity with you. that you were naked with her. and you had a fight. and she doesn’t feel comfortable with nudity and asked you to put your clothes on. and you refused and talked about her not being liberated. when she told me about this, she said that you had left the place after she had told you ‘in the wrong way’ to “put your fucking clothes on”. i so recognized this. the way of submissing completely to your will, and a part of the ‘intimidation’ in chatting with you after i had fallen for you, was that you could do an number of evasive moves to avoid ‘serious’ talk or answering questions. i was in deep fear of ‘losing’ your love, ‘losing’ the connection with you so you were in complete control of those chats — there was no way of holding you accountable without completely sugar coating every piece of criticism (or every evidence of my own will). a part of the scary thing with you was that i lost the ability to express myself in a normal way. of asking things straight and expecting to be treated wtih respect. i don’t know if this fear / control gadget (the eggshell talks) is a part of intimidation. but at least:

    non-consensual sex (including drunken violent sex). non-consensual nudity. no talk whatsoever of safe sex. verbal and mental violence. (and yes! this is serious!!) disappreciation of feminist thought. and complete disregard of criticism, denial of serious talks and you starting a relationship with yet another vulnerable woman while not saying anything about my concerns to her, or even that we had been involved with one another, and later giving an impression to this woman and her friend and another one of your ex partners that i’m just a jealous woman and that you had no idea what i was going on about (now, that’s SCARY!!) i was fucking freaked out hearing about how you treated her, and i was so scared of her going through the same hell i had been through. the first time i met with her face to face she said that you say nasty things to her, and that she had had a bad relationship before, and that she therefor was deciding to ‘take it slow’ with you. (there is no ‘slow’ with you, cause you basically spend hours chatting with your girlfriends, and when you meet up with them in person you’re with them 24/7 when you get involved with them, and that is NOT taking it ‘slow’ that is a pretty darned fast method of getting emotional control over someone — read “but he says he loves me” by dina mcmillan for more info on this technique.. http://www.scribd.com/doc/30771806/But-He-Says-He-Loves-Me-Dina-McMillan )

    maybe what was the most scary, was that i in spite of being in such a bad mental and emotional and physical state, i WANTED to believe you when you were saying “it’s not good having this talk like this speaking over skype or chatting. we should meet face to face. or we shouldn’t meet face to face. the best way to sort everything out is for me to spend more time with another woman and start a relationship with her, it would improve the relation i’m having with you”… can you believe that? i WANTED to believe your reality when i heard things like that! i was sooooo fucked up. (‘romantic’ fantasies) and i really had to fight to remain sane and take myself seriously.

    i’ve been told that your long term girlfriend made videos and put on the internet speaking about how she had experienced the relation with you. or maybe it was something about how the relation with you had affected her. i was told it’s in hungarian but anyways. could you send the links?

    hmm. after writing this. i have this kind of “i don’t think daniel will get it”. i think you will read your own meaning into what i write. and continue with saying what you said in response to this blog post: “i am not a violent man”. in spite of there being plenty of proof of women living in fearful existence when being romantically / intimately involved with you. the thing you have been known to diagnose as mental illnesses and general weird behavior (nothing to do with you, but something ‘inherent’ in us, or something that is in us not because of the interaction with you but because of ‘society’)

    if you have any comments questions random rant i’m absolutely willing to hear it. use whatever words you feel comfortable with. i prefer having it coming straight my way directly from your mouth than hearing it through others (which is how i’ve gotten most disturbing info about what you’ve said about me).

    how did you hear this? what do you think / feel when you read this?

  5. i felt sorry… im sorry for intimidating you
    i repeat: sorry for being naked in the wrong situations and being so random about sexual intimacy…
    also sorry for not taking it slow with you, maybe it wouldnt have been so `swampy` for you and none of this would have happened…
    i think i agree with most of what you were saying

    about the time: i dont have much net… i am living my life (currently in the middle east) and it gets priority over writing the history of my personal relations so i dont know what to say to your offer… i dont think its really possible for me to read all your stuff and write 3 texts each week… it just doesnt fit my life

  6. hi daniel,

    would you be okay having a chat with me, to sort out practical stuff on how we do this talk?

    take care,
    milla

  7. i dont know how to do this… partly online, partly offline maybe… i think writing is slower than talking
    at the moment im in Jerusalem and i wont be back in Europe for weeks… and of course i cant sit in front of the computer a lot… i go sleep now…

  8. hi daniel,

    it seems like i didn’t express myself very clearly (?) so i will ask again:

    my question was if we could have a chat (gmail, skype, msn) to sort out the practical questions on how to structure this talk?

    take care,
    milla

  9. i would like to understand you better — could you say what you agree wtih, and also what you don’t agree with?

    “i think i agree with most of what you were saying”

  10. more: in budapest. at your grandmother’s place. we were two women there staying over with you. you later had ‘some sort of sex’ with the other woman. and when i was there and you suggested that we would drink something, [but then saying we wouldn’t — thank god, cause i would have so wanted to just ‘disappear’ ‘escape’ everything that was going on]. that was a scary moment for me (in relation to how you had talked about this other woman ‘B’ at your student dorm, wanting to be with you drunk, and how you had tried to engage with the two woman while you were there – this seemed to be quite a lot on your mind at the time i got to know you — ‘non-mongamy’ and how to find women [you never spoke of men – apart from you being maybe a bit attracted to ‘E’ who had compared me to a ‘rapist’]). if drinking, i could have gone over my limits. i was already insecure and lacking ‘my own sense of perspective’ [don’t know how to explain / exrpess that better].

    also that you were changing clothes – no pants, underwear on – inside the room where this woman was in bed, while i was in the room. also that you had asked if me – whispering, suggesting that we should all sleep together so that ‘she wouldn’t feel left out’. this felt scary to me. not understanding what your intentions were. cause to me that wasn’t neutral – like friends just sleeping together. and you had kind of so many times already shown that there was never any asking involved in you engaging in sexual activity involving one or more other persons [your intentions at your student dorm, and us touching and you talking with another woman about that over the net]. so that was really scary to me. the suggestion to drink. and also the ‘unnecessary’ nudity. and the whispering way of asking – the look you had in your eyes.

    this was also scary to me, when you talked about the woman you hadn’t even bothered to talk about your other relations with [the one relation that you had said would ‘improve our relation’ – you starting a relation with her being better for ‘us’ than you and me talking emc..], nor saying anything about you having behaviors affecting other people negatively. that you in a chat with me was saying that you were interested in her friend as well. and that you so easily could just deny whatever intentions you had when we met live. [“no ‘C’ – in my world there is ‘only’ you”.. “you are my emotional focus”.. bla bla..] when all 4 of us met – you me, C, D – you even called this woman – ‘C’- by the name of another woman -‘B’- that you were saying that you had no relations with (you were lying to this woman [C], saying that you had nothing going on with ‘B, even though you were spending 3 weeks with her [B], pressuring her into ‘loving’ you). B who you also have made several promises to about ‘working stuff out’..

    i experience it as your will ‘taking over’, and that you can do whatever, and still ‘get away’ with it. that is really really scary to me.

    it was scary speaking with ‘C’ about her trusting you, and how you were ‘making her feel safer’ with polyamory — when you from day 1 had been lying to her. (how can lies and deceit ever create a sense of ‘safety’, instead of destroying the self-worth and sense of reality little by little. you started big time with her – undermining her sense of ‘reality’, giving you control – lies that were HUGE. but still your ‘truth’ is on top of it all)

    the way you relate(d?) to alcohol and sex. the way you relate to consent (not caring about it). the way you relate to intimate relations (lying, seeing only your own perspective [when talking about your relations with other women and talking about them / us as mentally ill etc], not caring about hurt done, non-accountability) — all that was scary. it’s scary talking with you about these things, cause somehow, talking about it doesn’t make this real. the reality is that you don’t have to work on these things. no matter what i write here, or what i say, you can continue in the same way for the rest of your life, you will always find women reassuring you of that ‘everything is okay’, and believing you when you say that it’s just ‘those women’ being weird and non-understanding.

    it’s scary seeing how the way i was affected by ‘being in love’ (believing you, feeling like crap – totally insecure, unsafe, scared – and still thinking that ‘you mean well’ that you somehow ‘care’). it’s scary to see how easily you disregard the safety of others.

  11. i sent this as an sms to daniel:

    “Hello daniel, i share some your feelings of frustration about our emc talk. Would you be willing to have a text chat with me over gmail faecbook or skype to decide a time frame and some agreed upon ‘method’ ‘conduct’ for our talk? It would give me a sense of safety and ease. /milla”

  12. daniel wrote: “i am living my life (currently in the middle east) and it gets priority over writing the history of my personal relations so i dont know what to say to your offer…”

    this is not history.. this is a present time person to person relation (how we are relating to one another NOW). just because we don’t fuck doesn’t make it less ‘real’. this is how you treat a person wanting to speak about everyday male chauvinism wtih you. (and it’s driving me nuts. why is it so difficult to answer that simple question about having a chat?)

  13. no i dont have time for a chat if it wasnt so clear until now
    i will have time for that in february
    and yes according to me it is history… its what happened two years ago

  14. this was sent as an sms: “how about us having a chat on skype, on saturday february 5th, 12 o’clock? would that work for you? / milla”

    about history, check out how i feel about this talk right now – present time:
    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/two-persons-talking/#comment-1309

  15. and this is some history that was made today:
    https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/my-triggers/

    i use my blog to vent hard feelings. and the cluelessness i have in how to use words in a way that would make sense to you in a way so i would feel heard and understood. posting the link here, so you don’t feel that i’m ‘talking behind your back’. feedback would be appreciated. but i’m not demanding it from you.

  16. sms from daniel: “yes but i have to check the exact date if it fits next week”

    my response: “can you send a confirmation of the chatting time by sms or as a comment on the blog, when you know, next week?”

  17. daniel’s response: “ja”

  18. adding two more occasions:

    i was doing astanga. you pressed your crotch against my behind when i was stretching on all fours.

    when we walked to meet with and have dinner with two more women in budapest. i don’t remember what we talked about, we were outside in the evening, you looked at me and started talking about how much you liked women’s genitals, just looking at me. it was strange. and it freaked me out.

  19. adding more stuff, to get it out of my head:

    — we were making out, i was on top of you, and we were with clothes/underwear on having genital contact, and you at one point, moving my underwear with your hand, and at some point saying “it would be so easy” – when you said that i don’t remember if i said ‘yes’ or ‘nodded’ or both – and then we stopped making out. i experienced that moment as you saying: “hey, i really feel i can do anything at this moment and you wouldn’t say no” and me agreeing to that. which was scary to me.
    the tone of voice, the look you had when you said it, affected how i felt about it, i didn’t experience it as an invitation to further dialogue, just a statement that you recognized yourself as having power (in a negative sense) in the situation.

    — when you talked about experiencing yourself as having control over women, and that you choose to exert that control. talking about how you can get women to come up and kiss you. (once again, the tone of voice and the look in your eye, plus the fact that i was ‘one of those women’ at that point)

    — when you wanted me to go to the shower with you, and me first saying no, and then saying yes, and you then saying no, cause you had had flashbacks of an ex girlfriend, that she used to ‘clean’ your penis in the shower. just the wording sounded scary to me.

    — when you were doing translations for the hungarian folk songs and saying “i’ll stitch your cunt up”, i wasn’t sure if you made it up, you seemed to be in disbelief yourself, and listened to the song again (other stuff was symbolism about ‘apples’ and ‘keys’ and about societal beliefs about sex and marriage) — i would like to hear the song, and if you read this, it would be great if you could post the name of the song as a reply. — anyhow, in this case it was just all the underlaying fear of/if you take enjoyment having control/power over women — and if it might be enjoyable for you to talk about women in a violent demeaning way in our presence. (at this occasion there were two women in the space, plus the boyfriend of the other woman, which you gave little or none or ‘arrogant’ /’male competative’ attention)

    i could describe things more as observations and state feelings and needs in relation to that. but figure it wouldn’t really make a difference. right now i have the feeling that any discomfort on my part in relation to any insecurities or fears or vulnerabilities i had, and wishes for consideration i had would be received as something that is ‘wrong’ in my head and just told for the sake of me liking ‘character assassination’ and not because

    fuck.. like my feelings and needs matter. just like the feelings and needs of anybody else.

    i’m really tired of getting dismissive response. i’m longing to get the technical stuff working. i hope to make it happen soon, so this wouldn’t be so ‘lonely’ and experienced on my part as me talking and you saying “yeah, right, whatever — are you done yet”

  20. to be more clear: “she used to ‘clean’ your penis in the shower. just the wording sounded scary to me.”

    when you said ‘clean’ your penis, i got the thought that you meant her taking your penis in her mouth, and that you somehow then would see that as the process of ‘making her mouth dirty’ — this is all in my head. my thoughts. it’s possible that you used soap and water and actually ‘cleaned’ your penis. i don’t know. just the phrasing plus other times when you had talked about sex it didn’t seem as something beautiful to you.

    adding more —

    when you talked about having sex with one of your partners, the tone of voice the look in your eye, when saying that she gets an orgasm quickly when you are having genital intercourse, and that it ‘doesn’t matter’ cause she usually gives you a blow job. [just the way of talking about it didn’t seem like it had anything to do with pleasure and enjoyment of being with the other person – every time you spoke of sex it seemed so dead to me – not as something powerful and healing – and that was scary for me to hear]

  21. […] What I’m mainly looking for is technical support, so that you and I can continue the talk on EMC. In six months – after one emc-example- we’ve managed to get to the conclusion that you […]

  22. […] my experiences with her. There’s been a promise to talk about EMC with me. We started, and it was frustrating and not really clear or connecting. I’m so longing to be understood, and i also want to understand. Daniel stopped the talk for […]

  23. than jktgou again and again. i would like top reqy realy smack that up for you again and again, chri9stmad like! meery chrtistmas,v. big prwesent fpr yopu!!!

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