“two persons talking”

by Milla — she–he

This is a continuation of an sms conversation that i started posting at the end of this blog post: Click here. This part of the conversation took place 12.11.2010 morning until evening.

Your reality is yours you define it for me its too heavy to endure and for a long time i thought whatever i say or do cant fix things. Is there something i can do for u now?

Could you tell me what – or if, something – is different now? How do you feel having this conversation?

Im somewhat at peace with everything. Its ok for me how do you feel?

Frustrated. Wanting too much.

Why are you at peace with everything? How do you overcome pain and fears? I don’t understand.

My greatest ones i faced and closed down by systematic meditation and series of crying. Letting go both spiritually and physically

I would like to talk with you at some point. I would also like help with getting to speak with the men’s group in budapest. Are you still in contact with them? Are you okay with these requests? Is there something you would like for me to clarify, or something you could ask for yourself, something i can do for you?

Yes we can talk but im not mediating for you sorry. Otherwise yes im still in the group. What does the first drunken message mean? Why did you write it?

This conversation is on my blog. Could we continue talking there? Tomorrow?

Yes but im in the south of Spain without net. Soonest posible next semana

What are you doing there , in spain? And next week is fine by me. I can make a blog post called “two persons talking” and we use the comment space to speak with one another. Ok?

Been to a Rainbow gathering in Portugal and now im going to visit friends in Granada with a caravan of anarchists picking fruit and such

It means: ‘what could have been’ and i wrote it cause i was drunk (unconscious) and sad about love not being possible to exist just for the sake of existing, without power games and fears, or with that but with the strength and safety of the simplicity of ‘to love and be loved’. It’s a need i have. I would like to ask it from you, but i know it isn’t there for you – as you say, you feel distance. And we have different perceptions of reality. Was this a clear answer to your question?

Yes

How was it for you to read that response?

Sad, safe and it made me think what does it mean love and be loved. Like a couple?

Like two persons sharing love – like poly (not the type of ‘poly’ i had with you – denying relations and avoiding talk and accountability, but a poly where ppl care and there’s awareness and consent. Commitment. Clarity) why do you feel safe and sad reading that message? And why do you ask if i mean ‘couple’? (strange. What does couple mean to you?)

Feel sad that you lack love and safe that i feel there is some understanding between us. Couple means exclusivity for me and i thought about it cause the first swedish message sounded a bit cheesy

Could u define cheesy and how that goes along with couple-dom? Who did you think you were talking with at first? Some swedish person with a finnish number? Or was it only after it was ‘Milla’ that it got ‘cheesy’?

First when i understood the text my spam mode turned on and i thought of cheesy love songs then i started thinking who it could be and you werent the first suspect

So it’s like when you were singing cheesy love songs to me / in my presence sharing bed space, touching. And you asking why you couldn’t be my boyfriend? To you ‘love’ is doing this? Playing couple?

No what you described is fooling around in bed

So how is cheesy related to couple, and why would you think i would mean couple?

Just guessing nothing specific and the relation is that human relations ruled by forced monogamy produce a culture like this

You see me as monogamous even though i say im poly?

It’s strange. I’ve been writing down this conversation in a word document. And i just read through it. When i asked if there was something i could do for you you asked what i meant with and why i wrote my drunken msg. It reminds me of previous conversations i’ve had with you where you want to hear me say i love you. It’s strange for me that you ask it from others but not wanting to say it yourself. I could have gotten by with some ‘i love u’s from u. I hope youre feeling better nowadays.

No i dont i was saying it in general. This culture affects most ppl on this planet but of course its no determining factor

I asked what i asked cause i wanted things clear. I didnt want anything else and i dont enjoy hearing i love you from you

I have difficulties understanding u. So what u mean is that u used the word ‘couple’ meaning the same thing as ‘intimate’ when checking what kind of love-sharing i was talking about. Correct? And to try to make u feel heard and safe: i hear that u dont enjoy romantic fantasies involving my person. Cool? Clear?

Just trying to explain more, with the risk of causing more confusion. The ‘like a couple?’ comment felt as out of context as a ‘like a virgin?’ 😀 comment would have been. Like not a ‘serious’ question, just ‘bizarre’. Hope todays talk hasnt been too triggering 4 u. Good night.

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42 Responses

  1. im back with stable net access…
    well us talking is a bit bizarre and out of the blue, but what the heck… you are a human being i am a human being and as such its not something out of the ordinary to talk… dunno what else to say… most probably nothing
    is this poly group a new thing in Finland?

    • hello daniel,

      yes, i agree, even though ive been in a lot of pain and having constant flashbacks during the time of non-talking with you, and didn’t really imagine (apart from romantic fantasies that i know are fantasies and probably just there because i dont want to believe that our interaction was as hurtful and disconnecting “for nothing”. all that pain for no reason whatsoever – no happy ending to my longings for love and acceptance.) — i agree that it’s bizarre, and pretty freaky that we are now speaking with one another, but i will try to take it with the same approach as you — labels and expectations and fears aside — two human beings — hopefully searching for some understanding, and clarity in our talk (which would be something out of the ordinary for you and me at least).

      about the topic of the talk — you’re asking a general question about poly groups in finland — i would suggest that you click on the link in the blog post, and ask someone on the forum for further details about that. is this okay as an answer to your question?

      otherwise i’m okay with the topic of poly, i would just like to be more specific — talk about you and me.

      out of love for myself, out of love for you, out of love for current and future love interests we both might have, i would like to engage in the, most likely triggering and emotional and hopefully healing (and laborious) task of going through the Everyday Male Chauvinism text
      https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/everyday-male-chauvinism/
      with you, and talk through our relation, work out and understand what happened, and as well come to an understanding of what the present problem between us is.

      Are you okay with this?

      More, I’ve found the conversation with you so far very triggering for me. Both pleasant and unpleasant feelings. I felt relief when you asked me if there was anything you could do for me – and as well that you speak clearly of why you’ve avoided talking, and that you now, for some reason can see yourself speaking with me again. I’ve been wanting to talk with you about these things for a long time.

      Could you express what goes on for you when you read this? And as well if you are okay with the requests?

      to be really clear: Anything with a question mark is something that i would like to have response to (nothing is rhetorical).

      take care,
      milla

      • yea of course i guess i should talk to other ppl about general questions we have more specific ones ahead of us…
        yes we can talk about us with the help of the EMC text its a great tool… i have nothing to hide/deny/be ashamed of, i was what i was and i am what i am i can promise honesty dunno if its ok for you or if its credible to you (i guess we will find out soon enough)
        im a bit scared, cause for me its mostly untriggering sofar to talk to you and i know it would be unfair of me to ask for moderate responses from you, but still i cant hide this feeling of fear… fear of being verbally assaulted… reminds me of my childhood family environment (the feeling i describe)
        i expect to let go of some more demons i may not even be aware of… dunno what the talks will bring, but im looking forward to it… how should we do it?

  2. i’m not sure how to proceed. i’m in the middle of a grieving process. just found out some days ago that a person i knew is dead. suicide.

    so. i’ve spent three days crying off and on, long periods (two nights in a row) where i can’t stop, it’s kind of funny observing myself. boo-hoo-hooo.

    anyhow. i have no specific method or plan or idea of how to go through the emc material. apart from >>

    posting one example after the other as blog posts. and then we speak about it in the comment section. would this be okay with you?

    i don’t know how to talk of other partners / love interests of yours, since your behavior towards them also affected me, and i would like to talk about it. maybe just speak of them as A, B, C, D, E etc, and you could guess out of the context who i’m talking about. how does a-b-c sound to you?

    any feelings / thoughts / wishes in relation to this?

    and in general i would like for you to continuously dig some inside of yourself and dare yourself to ask me for concrete things during this talk, that i could do to increase your sense of safety. or other concrete things i or you could do to for it not to turn into some trauma-hell.

    i would like to express openly that i’m pissed off that i’m dealing with this by myself with no support from the community around you or me. this is not how i would like for things to be done as a general structure. that people are left to deal with stuff randomly (i send you a drunken sms, and you have some romantic fantasies for some days, and then think that “oh, maybe it’s milla- wonder what she’s going on about?”) and then it just happen for you to be good timing in talking about stuff cause i recently participated in this nvc weekend course, and i through that have some tools to speak with you without going straight to hell.

    but. beggars can’t be choosers, and i’m content with the opportunity i have. to somehow understand the mentality that blocks me from the support i figure would make sense for me to have in the talk with you.

    how was this for you to hear? (i’m writing this, being really tired, and not really carefully checking what i’m saying)

    otherwise: i’m okay with you speaking about me as sexually abusive, bipolar and so on. to me those labels are just starting points, and i think i can live with you expressing your inner reality in whatever way you want.

    but when i ask clarifying questions i would like to have response in whether or not i guessed right or wrong. it felt a bit weird and frustrated to me when you didn’t respond to:


    I have difficulties understanding u. So what u mean is that u used the word ‘couple’ meaning the same thing as ‘intimate’ when checking what kind of love-sharing i was talking about. Correct? And to try to make u feel heard and safe: i hear that u dont enjoy romantic fantasies involving my person. Cool? Clear?

    which i myself experienced as fairly clear: “i didn’t understand.. is this correct? am saying it right? is what i say clear?” and no feedback from you.

    sorry. daniel. as i said. i’m tired. have a lot of things on my mind. a lot of stuff i want to do.

    i hope something of this made sense. respond freely.

  3. its ok to hear what you say except for a small piece: i didnt have any “romantic fantasies towards some days” it was the way you spoke in the 2nd and 3rd SMS that reminded me of your way of speaking… there was no romanticism in it on my end
    sympathies for the grief…
    yea just proceed as you wish about the EMC… my only wish is that you be yourself (not hold back, rephrase) even if i express feelings like fear, cause i think the reconciliation wouldnt really work then…
    i see that this is fairly random and i will try to respect that and pay attention to what you are saying and will try to answer things in your context and not just put my opinion next to it
    and couple wasnt a synonim or a code for something from the past… its a bit annoying that you try to analyze the hell out of this one word… i tried to tell you that it reminded me of cheesy monogamous pop culture in general… im very often fairly random and vague… sorry for that, but pls stop hanging on to this word
    if that question had another meaning to it (asking about what i think about intimacy) then pls rephrase, cause its hard for me to understand the way you said it
    and thx for acknowledging that i dont fantasize about you in any way….
    for being tired you dont have to be sorry… im tired too and bla… made sense… talk to you soon

    • hi,

      our conversation is super triggering for me, m.e.m.o.r.i.e.s coming -flooding, flowing- over me, many difficult feelings.

      and a sense of despair in relation to how this will go on -going through all the examples, how the talk around that will be. fears that i will not be heard. a need to be heard. a need to be understood the way i intend to be understood.

      it’s triggering to hear you say that you are “random and vague”, since i wish for us both to make an effort to be clear. not make assumptions about what the other thinks or feels.

      it’s very triggering for me to hear you say that my vulnerability/strength in relation to you – ie my love for you – is received as ‘cheesy’ and unwanted.

      it’s triggering for me to hear you say that i should ‘stop hanging on to this word’ [‘like a couple?’] when on my part, i experience it as very frustrating trying to figure how to ask the question in a way that would make sense to you, in order for me to be able to make sense out of what you say. [i still don’t understand why after i spoke of my love/vulnerability/strength ‘to love and be loved’ what kind of reply you wanted in relation to your question about Exclusivity?/Couple? – this does not make any sense to me — i will try to find a way to ask so you understand what im asking for]

      anyhow. it’s soothing to hear that you’re looking for reconciliation/harmony/resolution. i see a long talk ahead of us. what would ease the stress i have in relation to that would be:

      Request: I would like to hear any kind words you have about me if you have any. Kindness would help me relax. Anything nice you feel / think about me expressed here and now would really ease a lot of stress. Would you be okay with this? If you have nothing to say, then I’m okay with this as well. Then i will think of something else that might help.

      And: would you be okay with continuing this conversation while we’re having EMC-example-talk at the same time (meaning: i post a blog post with Example #1, etc.. Finishing one example before we move on to the next one, but at the same time, try to sort out this conversation [cause it’s really not making any sense to me – i don’t understand your triggers / words / whatevers].

      Are you cool with this?

  4. another request that i have is for you not to write when you’re drunk. are you okay with this?

    and if you for some reason would write when you are drunk, would you be okay with saying that in a post when you’re sober? (for example: “i wrote the last post when i was drunk”)

    take care,
    milla

  5. to be honest i drink a beer or two sometimes, but i cant even remember the last time i was “drunk” meaning: i seldom drink until my judgement is clouded by it…. im not so much different with a beer than without (i have a relatively high alcohol tolerance), but i can write down even this if it happens… is it ok? (now im 100% sober)

    ok one trigger for me: i think you have a way of communicating that you use other ppls words and read stuff from your context into them… i would feel safer if you voiced concerns in your own words and not as replies… i know i do it too i will try to watch it… sorry that i got stuck on something like this “cheesy”, but you putting “unwanted” next to it cleared things up for me thx

    going back to the original SMS: “with power games, but with the strength and safety of the simplicity of to love and be loved”… this honestly reminds me of Robbie Williams (maybe his songwriters used this formula safe and simple somewhere in his “epic” songs)… im sorry if this is offending, but thats the spontaneous association my mind makes i know that its not you i hope you believe me when i say this is me… thats why i asked: like a couple? its fairly random and vague, cause its not connected to what you were talking about… im sorry i dont know if i can be more concrete than this

    i see and agree that your love is unwanted, but wouldnt say cheesy… rather tragic… i have very good reasons for the rejection and they are not related to questions of monogamy/exclusivity.. they are related to questions of verbal violence in general, complete ignorance of the connection between personal and class relations and being non-sensitive towards trauma (i think you bash yourself a lot, but thats your business… you being non-sensitive towards me is mine)

    i think its really hard to be kind when the issues we are supposed to settle are not, but i will try:
    all in all im glad i know you… you are smart and able as an active proponent of social change… i agree with most of what you are about politically… im sorry for all the bad things that happened to you in your life… nobody deserves to be mistreated… i will try to watch myself so that no further harm is caused… what i can promise is honesty… i guess it will hurt sometimes, but in the end we will have justice.. and thats something nice to achieve

    if something is still unanswered just ask

    d

    ps: yea we can talk in two or more posts

    ps2: i was devastated to find out Ronja is not alive anymore… i cried the whole night instead of sleeping… 😦

  6. […] This is a continuation of this talk: Click here. […]

  7. MY REQUEST: about alcohol and writing, that, yes (1) i would like for you to write only when you have not been consuming [any] alcohol, and that (2) you would write in the following post if you for whatever reason, would have been drinking anything while/before [let’s say 12 hours before, to be absolutely clear] writing to me, in a previous message. (is this clear? are we agreeing on this? i know it might feel strange and superfluous, but i would very much like for you to repeat what you heard me say, so i know where we’re at. okay?)

    YOUR REQUEST:

    for the sake of clarity I quote:
    “yea just proceed as you wish about the EMC… my only wish is that you be yourself (not hold back, rephrase) even if i express feelings like fear, cause i think the reconciliation wouldnt really work then…”

    answer: I can not go along with your request [‘not hold back, rephrase’], since I experience reading you as very triggering [some of the feelings I go through: upset, disturbed, confused, sad, angered, tired, numb], what would follow if I did not ‘hold back’ would be a ro-o-ow of

    (1)questionssss-ssss-sss, mixed with
    (2)sarcasm and
    (3)labeling words.

    For various[to me known]-and-whatever[to me unknown] reason/s, I feel a lot in relation to the conflict with you, and I therefor prefer having a major part of what i’m going through un-documented: hours or days of thinking, feeling, trying to understand myself, finding out what I want at this particular moment in time. What process i’m looking for (this is not clear to me – and I feel rather discouraged about a possible reconciliation/justice [two words mentioned by you so far] process happening, since I don’t see this moving any further without a lot of effort on my side) [I hate being Responsible – I want: Ease, but i don’t know what to ask for concretely, in order for this sensation to be real for me.]

    I could compare the internal process I’m having “with” you, as being ‘obsessed’ with something, while dealing with all other things/conflicts/relations/situations/internal-external madness in my life. I don’t see any purpose in writing endless of pages of this process to you. Can you think of something else that would satisfy your wish of me ‘not holding back, rephrasing’?

    And as well explain further your idea of the concept of reconciliation? Please.
    And as well explain what you mean with justice? (Both of these questions in relation to the conflict we’re [you and i are] having, not general, but specific. How do you imagine a reconciliation process with you and me would look like? How do you imagine justice between you and I?)

  8. CLARIFICATION wished for #1:
    quote: “i see that this [conflict resolution process] is fairly random and i will try to respect that and pay attention to what you are saying and will try to answer things in your context and not just put my opinion next to it”

    what do you mean by this? and what is it that you are proposing you will do concretely? [i don’t understand what you are saying at all]

    CLARIFICATION number 2:
    quote: “ok one trigger for me: i think you have a way of communicating that you use other ppls words and read stuff from your context into them… i would feel safer if you voiced concerns in your own words and not as replies… i know i do it too i will try to watch it… sorry that i got stuck on something like this “cheesy”, but you putting “unwanted” next to it cleared things up for me thx”

    i don’t understand what you mean with this.

    could you be more specific in expressing your concern [i think you have a way of communicating that you use other ppls words and read stuff from your context into them]?

    and as well be more specific with what you wish for me to do [ i would feel safer if you voiced concerns in your own words and not as replies]?

    CLARIFICATION number 3:

    why do you call my love ‘tragic’?

  9. i experience a lot of sadness and anger when i read this:

    quote: “i see and agree that your love is unwanted, but wouldnt say cheesy… rather tragic… i have very good reasons for the rejection and they are not related to questions of monogamy/exclusivity.. they are related to questions of verbal violence in general, complete ignorance of the connection between personal and class relations and being non-sensitive towards trauma (i think you bash yourself a lot, but thats your business… you being non-sensitive towards me is mine)”

    first when i speak of my love to you as a response to your question, you say you feel ‘sad’ and ‘safe’ and then go on without further explanation to think out loud about robbie williams’ songs if they are about couples or not (?!) and when i express confusion in relation to this question (‘like a couple?’) you ask me not to hang on to it or ‘analyze’.

    and then you somehow you skip the “i’m so in love with you” part [was there ever such a part?] and go straight for the rejection (?!) i have no idea what you are feeling towards me, the only thing i know is that i’ve had some/many experiences with you that i relate to gender(power)relations, and that you, up until now, have been unwilling to talk about this (particular power relation) with me.

    i know you’ve read the emc text before we got involved, and that the only thing you said from the long term relation you had with A, is that she was more responsible about the cleaning when you lived together. // the emc- text itself was not given to me by you, but later on by a woman working with this type of abuse. // i find it strange that you are now saying that you’ve ‘rejected’ me “because of”… [not emc, but… verbal violence, class relations, trauma]

    i am aware of that i’ve had a display of repressed drunken aggression at a late stage in this particular (gender) power struggle. i own that. i am not proud of this behavior.

    — i can’t see myself as ‘completely ignorant’ of personal/class relations (my drinking has something to do with my class for example) i wouldn’t call myself an expert on it either (what it’s like being paperless in a Bureaucratic system, or how being an immigrant with the ‘wrong’ skin-color gets you labeled “roskaväki” [garbage people] by the ‘lower’ white layers of social class in the Nation system.)

    i can’t see myself as completely ignorant when it comes to trauma either, but i can understand that i haven’t met your expectations/needs and i would very much like to hear more of your experiences in relation to the topics you’ve brought up.

    would you be willing to formulate a discussion start: “verbal violence, class, trauma” or something such? i could (would very much like to) post this topic started by you in a new blog post, and then dialogue about it further in the comment section. would you be okay with this?

    i have a lot of curiosity in relation to what you have to say.

  10. to the alcohol request: ok no problem… no drinking when writing it was like this sofar so shall it be continued

    i dont want you to write down everything that you go through and the answer you gave is already an understandable description of your inner world which makes me feel safer… thx for that
    although the “obsession” part is a bit scary its nothing new, cause thats how i perceived you for a long time: obsessed with something that you and i both dont really understand, but we can deal with the part hopefully that we already understood

    sometimes i have the feeling that im the archetype of “man” to you… like all of your relations to men from the past and generally all of present day men you confront… that through trying to solve this conflict you try to solve something thats not only about you and me… with this in the back of my head its quite impossible to imagine that i could make you feel at ease, but if i can help this process in any concrete way tell me (sofar what i understood is that if i become more open towards you that will make you feel safer)

    reconciliation is i guess taking the time to talk to eachother in length so that we become more human to eachother, less alienated, that we slowly understand eachothers motives and goals… i hope justice will be a common point we can work out throughout this process
    im really interested what is reconciliation for you, cause for justice i read your articles about transformative justice

    clarification no1:
    will try to closely read your questions and answer them… try to stick to philology over interpretation, cause we need to be clear to reach some understanding… as i see you are quite good at this already
    im will to live up to your standards

    clarification no2:
    i have a feeling that whatever i try to communicate doesnt really go through… i constantly have the feeling that you search for some deep, mystical content in what i say and you dont really listen…
    this is the concern
    i think its becoming gradually better so i dont know how to rephrase the wish… i think i want to drop it for now…

    clarification no3:
    tragic love is when you are in love with an idea that is not present and you suffer from it… you often voice your need for simple human to human pure love (my interpretation of what you say), which obviously is an ideal… a nice one, but not so often realizable in life…. i dont think i ever managed to make connections like this and im not sure if any human has ever done that, but its something to achieve definitely… i prefer to take it step by step and not be appalled by the conflicting reality all the time… in comparison i see you as a being “struck by reality”, shocked by it so to speak… hence the word tragic

  11. continuing after not having net for 11 days:
    i cared for you, i felt for you when we met… this disappeared and wasnt there the latest from april 2009 when we agreed we only have a working relation, which also broke down… so i yes there were feelings, but it didnt last so long the negative experiences were stronger
    the unequal housework was just an example, but yea i know i didnt talk to you about my relations with `A` in detail… i didnt see a point to it at that time… i dont know what it would have changed…. you are still you, i am still me

    about social ignorance: as you know from my blogposts in Hungary roskavaki got shot and not insulted… Hungary is not Somalia, but also not Finland: its the semi-periphery… ppl dont get 450 EUR monthly for presenting themselves in an office and filling out some paper: this is a privilege… the finnish state has this money from the position in the capitalist world market… in this market Nokia phones are worth more than bananas (or even the metal that is the basis for constructing phones) hence the living standard of Ivory Coast and Finland (its a huge simplification, but there you have it)
    i do understand you were homeless at some point and that you have to eat at soup kitchens sometimes… still you are much `richer` that me and especially much richer than the ppl whose life was supported by the activist groups i did not want to totally break up with for the sake of protecting you from sexism… yes the scene is horribly sexist in Hungary and yes it feeds and shelters and provides culture for hundreds of ppl.. this is a huge contradiction that i have to live with… i do this out of choice: i am in opposition, but only to a certain level
    i understand that not letting ppl starve and freeze on the street corner is important even if they are sexist or the ppl helping them are sexist and im not sure if it is this clear for you or if you agree with this since you repeatedly told me that you see the world as the rule of men end of story and acted accordingly
    even today i wouldnt brake up completely with the freegan movement in Budapest to defend an opressed woman, but i would still raise my voice and try to do what i can do…

    about trauma: i dont think we are on the level of discussion yet that i would want to open up about my traumas, but generally yes you havent really met my expectations… for you it was weird that i was crying in the kitchen and non-communicative at my grandmas place and after a few attempts of trying to understand you just labelled me freaky… well i am i dont deny that, but im not sure if you are the person i should have conversations with about this topic since you have shown the same type of verbal aggression i grew up with

    • “its a huge simplification, but there you have it”

      hmm. i don’t deny what you say of my privilege. i am very aware that in spite of being on the ‘bottom’ of this society (finland, nordic countries)– globally and as well in europe i am in a very privileged position moneywise, health and educational-wise. i know that the riches of the place i come from is because of exploitation of others in other parts of the world. even the ‘poorest’ smelliest uneducated homeless bum in finland has a nokia phone.. don’t know. what i hear / understand from what you say, is that you experience a class difference between you and i (you eastern european, me northern/’western’ european) and that something i do / say in relation to that makes it difficult for you to relate to me (only me or the other persons you’ve been with from finland? germany? do you only feel equal with people from hungary? eastern europe? — i’m trying to understand your identity / ‘issue’ — it seems as if you identify with the homeless and with the romany minority in hungary? — you don’t experience it as you yourself being in a privileged position in comparison with them?) i’m still not clear what it is that i’ve said / done that you experience as discomforting / disturbing. would you be okay talking this through further? i would really appreciate if you could point out all my ignorance, lay it out for me. you haven’t spoken of these things with me so i would really like hearing you out on this.

      when it comes to class, i can say that i experience a ‘difference’ (power imbalance) with people who have a paper on their educational level (you have university and you’ve also said you’ve been offered to do work there. i myself, have followed my social programation as working class and not gotten myself an ‘education’). i experience it as you having expressed that you agree with the general societal belief of there existing a certain value in having paper on ‘knowledge’. for instance with peter from the men’s group. that you’ve said that “my personal opinion is that Peter as a psychologist with over 30 years of experience working in 3 countries simultaneously in dozens of organizations is completely capable of the work he is doing…” when i’ve expressed criticism of how this man relates to conflicts between men and women, reproducing a gender hierarchy. and you seem to express that a man with ‘status’ ‘knows better’ (has more ‘credibility’) than a woman (with no ‘status’ ‘education’) on what she needs or finds useful or harmful, and that a man with ‘status’ has a right to shut down discussion with a ‘nobody from the internet” (this is the impression i’ve gotten from what you’ve said in relation to this, correct me if i got it wrong).

      i do not wish with my expressing this to take away focus on your criticism. i would like to understand better what it is you are trying to say. i want to hear you out. i have no wish whatsoever to silence your criticism, my questions might be triggering / insensitive because of lacking your perspective on things, i have no wish whatsoever to insult you or discredit your struggle.

      i’m hoping that i’m not contradicting myself by continuing with openly expressing a certain level of suspicion i have in relation to you rather ‘defensively’ bringing up class (this is the second time i hear this from you) in relation to my speaking of the sexism i (still) experience in relation to you. i can not understand (and this might just be a lack of perspective) of how you would get an idea of me ignoring a talk on class in favor of gender. what i’m trying to offer to you now is a chance to express all the bitterness, sadness, anger and fear (or any other feelings) that you experience in relation to my nationality / privilege. intersectionality is definitely real: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality and i do not wish to deprive you of making your voice heard and speaking of the things that you find urgent and important and hold dear. the only thing that ‘scares’ me in this talk is that you seem to justify your sexist behavior with the privilege i have in relation to you. i repeat: i Do Not Deny you of a talk of Class. What i find confusing is that you seem to say that i do. (are you saying that i deny you a talk of class?)

      if so: Why?

      Why would a talk of class exclude a talk on gender? And vice versa?

      I heard from a woman in germany having a relation with a sexist man from the balkans — this man also expressing a lot of bitterness in relation to social (country) privileges when the issue of gender has been brought up in the relation.

      east/west is real. north south is real. gender is real.

      in my reality there is no either / or. i would like to be able to include all that is ‘real’ for everybody involved. i don’t know how to create the opportunity for these simultanous realities to be ‘shared’ in a way that creates a sense for everyone involved, to experience that they are really getting heard, and that they are really taken seriously. (often i feel that i’m not taken seriously when i express my point of view in relation to you)

      i don’t understand where you’ve gotten the idea that i do not want for you to do work benefitting people with no home, no food, no money.

      the thing that we talked about in april 2009, was more you choosing to have intimate relations with persons who have said that i would be banned and am not welcome in the community. (a person owning a flat.) people who called me crazy, and that i should understand that i’m unwanted and should just stay away. and that you didn’t really care to say or do anything about that when i was there while speaking with me about how you ‘love women’s genitals, the many folds in them’, seamingly not caring too much for the thoughts in women’s heads, or the feelings in women’s hearts and stomachs. are you justifying the social / political exclusion i was experiencing and your non-action in relation to that with my getting social benefits from an exploitative state? i never said that you shouldn’t do work benefiting sexist people in this society (?!) what i said was that i can’t have an emotionally tight relation with someone who also has emotionally tight relations with people who hate my guts. and i guess i should have added that i can’t have emotionally tight relations with people who ‘love women and girls’ but don’t really care for these women and girls to have a say that matter.

      fuck. is this talk going straight to hell? has it already gone beyond any sort of understanding?

      i’m pretty annoyed that you’ve avoided responding to some questions. like i offered you a blog post starting with class, trauma, verbal violence. you didn’t respond to that. why not make that into a separate topic? wouldn’t this give it the focus you would wish for it to have?

  12. adding: “sexist people”… who in this world is NOT sexist? (aren’t we all molded and bent to fit in to the twisted ways of this world?)

  13. i meant something very specific: the scene in Budapest (meaning the former common flat, meaning the freegan movement, meaning the ppl who you had a conflict with) is very sexist and unsafe and the conflict you got into with them would have excluded/marginalized me totally if i take your side whole heartedly… i really wanted to support you, but there were limits to that… i didnt want to lose my position partly, cause of my means of existence and partly cause of the many ppl these activities make benefits for
    i didnt want to say that in general class and gender go against eachother… in this specific situation where i had to choose between supporting you hence isolating myself from these activities (fighting for sexism) and preserving the ties to sexist ppl trying to build communities and organize basic services for themselves (fighting for economic equality) i chose not sever the ties more and be more intimate to sexists that i sympathize with because of collecting food for example

    the same thing exclusion happened to you in Satama when you chose total opposition… there i would have done the same as you and totally go against the system… but the difference is exactly the class thing: there young punks have fun drinking, here its the means of survival for many
    there was no option for me not to be `intimate`, to not be close with your enemies hence we couldnt get along
    there were other conflicts like this after yours within the scene and basically im marginalized at the main squat for standing up for a queer movie screening and i only participate in the freeganism thing… also im looking for new ways out, cause of the suffocating atmosphere (other continents, other movements in Europe like ppl working with permaculture)
    also Hungary is really getting fascist in many ways…

    the point being: yes i do have problems with western ppl not just you… i had problems like this with basically all of my finnish contacts without exception… germans and austrians too (there the ratio is somewhat lower, but still very high)
    it is more of an existential question… even the words you use are filled with privilege: its a really western thing to say that being poor is like an identity problem… i think you know from your experience that sleeping in a random alley or a public toilet is not really about getting heard or having an oppressed identity… its more about exclusion from access to material things
    yes i do identify with homeless a lot and i sympathize with gypsies although i feel like an eastern european in general and not really like a gypsy or a hungarian or any other nationality… thats why i dumpster food and support the main grass roots homeless organization in Budapest with all i can…
    there are ppl more down the ladder of course, but this is a very concrete talk about a class relation between us and not about the world economy (thats more like the background for it)
    is it clearer now? i dont really know what to say more… it takes much more energy and planning for an eastern european to try to live as autonomously as possible… i can compare my life in Finland and Hungary there is a huge gap… in Finland even as a bum they just throw wealth at me, in Hungary you get a kick in the face
    in Finland its easier to just leave a group if you are in serious conflict with them

    about educational privilege: you also went to university and you are quite well-read and you hold workshops and speak languages… i dont really see a difference between us
    i still dont have the paper from my uni and i dont attach any special value to it
    for example the sentence about Peter was meant to say that i admire his 30 years of experience in psychology and feminist activism that i saw in practice just as much as i admire your 10 years of experience in raising awareness and fighting for gender equality and freedom of expression… Peter doesnt even have a paper and he is often the target of attacks from the official psychologist associations… the conflict within the hungarian feminist scene is more complex than this and im not sure if its good to open a huge topic like this when we have trouble reaching some basic understanding

  14. for me its ok to talk here i dont need an extra topic for that… if i wanted to have a blog about this class thing i would have done one already, but i prefer offline realities… internet is also a social privilege in this sense…
    and yes most ppl on this planet are sexist

  15. about trauma: from what you have said / written i understand that you have lived with memories of moments where i have said / done things you’ve experienced as hurtful.

    this i can relate to. i don’t see myself as someone i would pick to have a relation with. incapable of expressing what i want and need, and carrying the many moments of shock (the hurtful things you said and did) inside and then gettin all weird with you when i got drunk. there were many moments i cared for you, and this tenderness that was there at first, so selfless, so absolutely loving, patiently asking and waiting (the times you got crazy in helsinki) had by the time i came to budapest become a hurting lonely echo (“is this all i am, will i never get any real answers, does nobody care about my pain”) i turned really psycho and weird on you. mentally, verbally. and it lasted for a long time. it started in helsinki already with small things. like when you had stood in front of me masturbating without saying anything, then i stood in front of you naked, shaking my hair like you had done, cause it was so strange to me – the way you took space – and somehow i felt like ‘what the fuck, if this guy is doing that then i do it too’. i don’t want to be that person. and i can relate to you not wanting to be with someone behaving like that. not being able to express feelings and needs. just reacting. being messed up.

    i don’t know if you can relate to the pain experienced when asking someone: “is there something i can do for you” and constantly getting the answer that “everything is fine” (my reality with you.) so not meeting your expectations is something i don’t regret.. your expectations on me (and probably others as well) were impossible to meet: to know what you wanted without you having to express it yourself.

    it’s up to you to speak about your traumas or not. i can’t force you to do anything. maybe you feel pressured to say something on this blog in an attempt to ‘save’ your ‘reputation’. don’t know. maybe you feel ‘forced’ to speak here. i can’t say. i’m not you, so i don’t know. i don’t get you. i would like to understand. to understand could be healing. if anything would make it easier for you to speak, then i would like to know how i could do that.

    about verbal violence. i guess we have different ideas on what that means. i see us both as having been verbally violent already in this talk by labeling one another and not speaking about feelings from our own perspective. if you would like for me not to do some specific thing then i would like to encourage you to say whatever it is you wish for me not to do, or if there’s something you would like for me to do then i would like to know what that would be.

    it feels a bit surreal having this talk. i still feel really unsafe speaking with you. i don’t really trust you. i had another talk about group dynamics / exclusion / hieararchies today, so i guess i feel a bit affected by that as well. like i live in a parallell universe somehow. i used to understand things and reality very dffierent from how i understand them today, and somewhere along the line, i kind of lost touch with that ‘reality’ and can no longer make sense out of what most people take for granted.

    i have no clue if i can make sense to people anymore. like this whole blog is a crazy hole, where heaps of words are poured into, thousands and thousands of words.

    i feel like i’m totally crazy. whatever. curious of whatever you have to say.

  16. quoting you “(fighting for sexism)”

    usually people fight against sexism.. a freudian slip? :p

  17. and this is important: “yea i know i didnt talk to you about my relations with `A` in detail… i didnt see a point to it at that time… i dont know what it would have changed…. you are still you, i am still me”

    i don’t expect that you speak about any relations in detail (even though you spoke quite much about that relation, it was just the ‘angle’ on the stuff that you said that was the disturbing ‘detail’.)

    you didn’t tell me “i am abusive in intimate relations” which is something you SHOULD most ABSOLUTELY tell people that you get involved with (this includes one night stands / flirts / flings ALL people that you relate with) in a ‘romantic’ fashion.

    and it kind of majorly sucks that you don’t tell people that. cause that kind of means that you don’t really own that you have a lot of behavior affecting people you supposedly ‘love’ in a negative way. instead you speak about the women you’ve hurt as ‘crazy’ and having hurtful behaviors towards you (you really don’t understand what you have done and what you do – do you?)

  18. eeh. i keep reacting on things you say.. “the same thing exclusion happened to you in Satama when you chose total opposition… there i would have done the same as you and totally go against the system…”

    well.. you were here in helsinki.. when i [half-jokingly} suggested i would go with you to the house meeting in satama you had a very emotional reaction saying that you didn’t want me to ‘spoil’ your ‘chances’… so you didn’t really want to be associated with me in helsinki either (dunno if you forgot the stand you took while you were here — i was pretty hurt by that).

  19. “the conflict within the hungarian feminist scene is more complex than this and im not sure if its good to open a huge topic like this when we have trouble reaching some basic understanding”

    complex.. huge.. dunno. from where i see it it’s fairly simple [i’m not allowed to criticize, my opinion and feelings don’t matter, i don’t have power to affect change — i experience that as a structural flaw, and that you are actively participating in this strutural flaw, while you seem to think it’s an ‘individual’ thing, and that i shouldn’t be so bugged about it]. it would be cool if you could sum up the big picture in a few sentences. i would like to understand the complexity of this matter. humor me, please. i would really like to understand what it is that i don’t understand about this thing. cause i’m really Bugged about it.

    and you saying that i have” 10 years of experience in raising awareness and fighting for gender equality and freedom of expression” is a gross exaggeration. i read my first feminist book in a conscious manner and got ‘awakened’ ten years ago. i reached the point of ‘no return’ [“i know too much, i have to do something!”] and got ‘active’ maybe >> 4 << years ago. if 'awareness' is the same a 'shared reality' then i haven't been very successful.. i have a lot of experience of getting into frustrating conflict and getting the silent treatment [well.. also a lot of verbal abuse} — i don't think that's anything to admire.

  20. i’m really stuck with this, more fun than a cross-word-puzzle. >> “since you repeatedly told me that you see the world as the rule of men end of story and acted accordingly”

    häh?? i don’t get this. could you explain?

  21. more: “i think you know from your experience that sleeping in a random alley or a public toilet is not really about getting heard or having an oppressed identity… its more about exclusion from access to material things”

    well. you are mentioning examples related to my life: sleeping in a public toilet or alley.

    the position i have — is someone with access to education, health, money — if speaking of my education, what caused me to mess up my studies in the end and not follow through after less than a year of studying finnish at the university in sweden, was many things: — i had moved out of my mother’s place and gaining autonomy and emotional freedom in that sense, so i was dealing with that internalized power relation and the seizing of existence of the external one (she feeding, and housing me — making decisions about my life, defining who and what i am, being a voice present, affecting my life). and also because there were no expectations / pressure on me to study something ‘fancy’ leading to a powerful position in society. even though i have access to the education, i would most likely not have access to the social network (nepotism) and social codes (cultural behavior marking my position) getting me into the ‘right’ places afterwards.

    instead i started drinking and became an alcoholic doing odd jobs and living on welfare for several years. after failing with my studies i still managed to renew the students benefits/loans by writing a sob-letter to the student-loan-board (whatever it’s called) ‘based on reality’, about my psychological condition and that i had been clueless before and that studying was just just a means of leaving my mother’s place and to get independent, and that i now i was more determined and ‘motivated’ in my studies [i wanted the financial means to leave sweden] (i was granted a year’s loan for studying spanish abroad — while being there i drank a lot, being in a terrible state. and after the ‘studies’ i continued doing cleaning jobs, drugs and drinking).

    for me. (and i’m not speaking about your reality now, i’m speaking about what is real for me, from where i come from). that for me: theoretically i have access to education and money and shelter. it’s more an internal thing ‘denying’ myself the ‘path’ that is encouraged and self-evident for other classes (my ‘class’ is tightly intertwined with ‘woman’ and ‘second generation finn-bastard’, i can’t separate these two from the ‘working class’ identity/position). if you say that these things are ONLY about material access (me sleeping in public toilets, alleys) i strongly disagree with that perception of reality, the fear of living one day to another and feeling belittled and overpowered by the system/s (the paper system for MANY is not just about filling in a paper now and then, but about CONTROL and FEAR and STRESS and UNCERTAINTY and not seeing ways out, and feeling isolated and alone) this is *as well* about SOCIALIZATION a ROLE that i am either aware of and can do something about or something that i can un-thinkingly follow (i ‘am’ a drunk, a ‘homeless’, ‘not having a real education’, etc). instead of using the parts (education, money etc) to my benefit (using the money i receive not for booze [even choosing to go hungry..] but instead taking those funds and put into useful, empowering things — that is a class issue — an internal one, not an external material one.

    making a comparison that might work for privileged people with mobile phones and internet access: it’s like having a nokia phone and not knowing that they are designed / enginered by people who thought nothing about ‘user friendliness’ and instead of ‘blaming the system’ you blame yourself for feeling ‘stupid’ when using the phone clicking on all the buttons to find whatever function it is you are looking for, and knowing that there are a lot of more functions on the phone but not really having a clue (feeling tired, frustrated, hopeless) of how to use it — thinking that you are alone in this and that it’s ‘only’ you and not how the phone was structured/designed that is the problem.

    ‘material access’ [real hands on day to day possibilities] and ‘identity’ [the perceived possibilities shaping our day to day actions] are interlinked. it’s both physical as well as emotional. this goes for class, gender, age etc etc.

    and yeah, i say this speaking from positions from both advantage and disadvantage (when i speak of class and i say ‘woman’ i mean white, ablebodied, nordic woman. when i say ‘second generation finn-bastard’ i mean a white ethnic majority finn)

  22. you asked: “is it clearer now?”

    i can relate to what you say. about needing emotional care and safety. and how living and food and the worry about that takes a lot of energy, especially when the general mindset is focused on how unbearable / disconnecting / frustrating everything is and how to ‘get away’, how to ‘get out’. [how to find spaces with a genuine sense of belonging]

    i recognize that living and food are heaps easier for me than for you — i can get a basic safety from the system that i’m in, a system that you don’t have access to as easily. i can see that you experience your situation as overwhelming and that you feel powerless, wanting a sense of belonging and fearing the people you are with, and the power they have to include / exclude you materially, emotionally, relationally and you experiencing that your well-being and possibility to function within a certain social sphere is depending on you fitting with [being capable of soothing / not disrupting] their reality. you experience a great deal of powerlessness in that situation. power, fear, discomfort are ever-present, and you are looking for ways to cope, and for more alternatives.

    in many ways, when speaking about it in this abstract way, i can relate to what’s said above (i don’t know if you recognize yourself in the paraphrasing i just did). i don’t know if i can hear you, or if you feel heard. do you feel heard?

    i hear a part of what you are saying as you wanting more understanding for ‘intentions’ and ‘trying’ when it comes to dealing with sexism. and also that you experience as sexism being something external (a problem in your surroundings – the ‘scene’ is sexist), and that you avoid doing something about it since you fear being marginalized. it is hard for me to take you seriously when you speak of the pain you have in relation to sexism. somehow it becomes surreal – having been in a position for so long trying to speak with you about a terrifying existence where you played a big part, and having heard from you so many times “yeah it’s important — but the problem is really somewhere else, and you are crazy”. or: “you are right” but not changing anything.

    what i don’t understand is where i cease to be human to you, or if there is any point where my humanness begins. [how much of an ‘object’ am i to you, how many expectations there are for me to fail or succeed in fulfilling] it’s a puzzle to me, what it is that you understand of my reality, and what you don’t. i can recognize myself in what you say about you not ‘just’ being you, but representing expectations that i’m trapped by in my daily life (past and present): for instance that of being a body (in a limiting controlled way, not empowering self-determined way, not in a ‘needy’ or ‘wanting’ way). being attracted to you has caused a lot of painful feelings when reflecting on sexual behavior i did not feel okay with – if any ‘random’ person would have done the same thing the immediate response [nowadays] would have been anger, hurt etc. with you this becomes a mix of wanting / not wanting / wanting / not wanting [getting messed up / acting out].. and getting hurt on a deeper level. (sexual expression not being liberating but a way to assert power) it’s painful and disturbing going through these feelings cause they expose a huge longing for love, caring, nurturing (etc etc sexual expression, self-connection and so on) and not understanding what these longings are awakened by (was it only your male behavior? flirtiness? possessiveness? and me responding accordingly, in the way i’m supposed to? was there more than superficial role-play and acting out the cultural illnessess we’ve acquired in life? was there any real moments of tenderness and connection? or just two persons acting out whatever hurts and insecurities we have?) sure this is related to you as a ‘man’. but as well as a ‘human’ and a ‘love interest’ (a person whose presence for whatever reasons can evoke strong feelings in me). i don’t really have trust that you would be capable of not ‘playing’ [or: be sensitive to my needs – connect with me in a non-objectifying human to human way] so i don’t trust that we could work out a relation between us that would feel safe for me. i guess one of my motivations / goals is to understand myself [what triggers different feelings in me? why?]

    i don’t know you. you don’t know me. and we managed to hurt one another.

    sexism and gender roles was a big part of the hurt that i experienced with you, and it’s been very painful having this hurt denied and / or individualized. as something you don’t need to work on actively in relation to me. it’s been painful realizing the big contradiction with you contacting me [in autumn 2008] with the intent to support, but instead engaging with me sexually (flirtatiously) and adding another level of humiliation — the person supporting is not willing to have me present [or support me] in public spaces, but okay with me in bed, as long as i don’t show any feelings of upset or own needs for care — i should be supportive and caring and as you have said “forgive and forget” while you can bear grudges and present your criticism (confusion, hurt, fear) as something eternal, objective and ‘non-projective’.

    you asked before what reconciliation would mean for me. what the motives and goals are.

    i really don’t know. at the moment i feel very confused and scared and alone in general when it comes to words and senstences used in human interaction. i feel ‘crazy’ repeating myself to people who shy away from opening up, and speaking out. i have a strong need for belonging and acceptance. i want a community [social relations] that feels supportive and meaningful – where the simple act of me taking space / existing / expressing myself wouldn’t be ‘controversial’.

    i’ve spoken so much [and written much] already about the pain i have in relation to the dysfunctional way of relating with you — the pain of wanting something that simply isn’t there — mutuality, understanding — the longing for a deeper connection, shared love.

    reconciliation. well. it’s a beautiful dream what you say about us talking and through that becoming more real to one another. i don’t know if i believe in it. i see hiding and projection and fear and confusion to be strong cultures that we exist within. and it’s very hard to break out of those patterns. you say you want to care, you say you want to give honesty. you want to be responsible. still i experience in this talk how you don’t answer questions. how you still avoid talk. how you by one sentence here, or some wording there can still be in control.

    i would really like to have a time frame set up for this talk. as you said: step by step. it would give me safety and ease – knowing when the next step is taken and how.

    i would like for you to experience that there is space for you to speak. i don’t know how to make that happen. i would like myself to go like i have done so far “blaaaaaaah”. but i also see that this can prevent connection. that this would be more like me having open self-reflection going on instead of checking with you after shorter paragraphs “how did you hear this? any comments questions thoughts feelings?” to see what it is we understand from what the other person is saying.

    i feel very frustrated. like i said. words and sentences don’t really make sense to me at the moment, and i find them to be useless tools. maybe it’s just a moment of despair. maybe it’s a point of view that will grow stronger. i don’t know.

    reconciliation. i don’t know. i really don’t know. i need to feel safe at first.

    goals and motives: you’re willing to talk, so i’m willing to give it try. hoping to deal with a lot of pain, hoping to get over that pain. and to be honest. if going through all the emc examples with you. if you get involved with someone, they can (if they speak english) get support in what i say and in my perspective, in the same way that i got support from other women that you were involved with, in spite of you not liking that i talked with them. without those moments of support and shared reality (no matter how much distrust or disconnection and hurt there might have been in those connections as well) without those moments i could have easily internalized everything and listened to your ‘truth’ which is a reality that i find very harmful to be in (like standing inside this possessive pit you’ve been digging, looking at you, only seeing you, and saying that i don’t like that place, i like you, i love you, but i don’t know how to connect, and you standing there on the edge of the pit saying that you feel distance and somehow not making a connection with the digging and the distance it creates.) in my talk with you i don’t really experience that you have or ‘get’ my perspective, and i’m hoping that going through the examples you will get a different perspective. as well as – since i don’t trust you – that writing all this down, documenting it, it will be easier for others to see what space they are in and be able to make a more conscious decision about what they would like to do with it. i guess this is not only people relating to you, but anybody who happens to come accross this and feeling just as ‘crazy’ as i do in repeating the same perspective, so unrecognized and invisible to others.

  23. and when in this unbalanced and strange conversation (monologue intertwined weirdness) i might add, since there’s been some talk about nokia — that there’s a documentary called Blood in the Mobile. It was shown on finnish television in december 2010. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it daniel, it’s supposed to be shown in hungary as well (depending on when you’re there).

    http://bloodinthemobile.org/
    “The Documentary Blood in the Mobile shows the connection between our phones and the civil war in the Congo. Director Frank Poulsen travels to DR Congo to see the illegal mine industry with his own eyes. He gets access to Congo’s largest tin-mine, which is being controlled by different armed groups, and where children work for days in narrow mine tunnels to dig out the minerals that end up in our phones.

    After visiting the mine Frank Poulsen struggles to get to talk to Nokia, the Worlds largest phone company.”

  24. you know this is not working… now i would have 2 hours of writing replies, but its just too much text to read through… this would take half a day and i DONT have this much time….
    this is not going to work this way AT ALL…
    this is exactly the same as 2 years ago… you write tons of text and you have a lot of time to do this… i have a busy life and i cant even read through all of this… this is extremely frustrating… especially you saying that we could finish this in mere `18 months` 😛
    i dont know what to do… for sure i wont have time for this in Israel… maybe in ferbuary… i guess this angers you, but im definitely not sitting at the computer working with this several days a week for 18 months… NO WAY
    this is why i suggested spoken word… that doesnt take so much time… if you want it documented you can transcribe it to the blog or whatever i dont care about that (dont want to hinder it, dont want to support it)

  25. hello daniel,

    i start with a correction, my suggestion was 18 WEEKS [not as you say: months] (in comparison to the rate we’re taking now where all the EMC examples would take about 5 YEARS).

    i hear your frustration in relation to internet time. it’s possible you have no-one around you with computer/latptop or pen-drive but still: one technical suggestion i would have for you, would be to copy the responses i’ve written so far, to a memorystick and then read later (i’m assuming you have the technical skill for this + hang out with people who would have the above mentioned equipment — i could be wrong). this way you could use your online time more efficiently. you could also write your responses off-line. these are practical ways for you not to ‘waste’ your online time.

    another thing that might help would be if you suggest an amount of words that would make it easier for you to process a message. for instance 500. i know i write a lot, thousands and thousands of words. i have a lot to say. but i could, for the purpose of making communication more connecting, easier, limit my words to a specific number. there are wordcounting tools online that’s possible to use for that purpose: http://www.wordcounttool.com/

    i get irritated when you say it’s too much but won’t at the same time specify a specific number that would “just right” for you. i wish for you to be more specific in the future. (the thing i continously ask from you)

    you are not very specific with your spoken word request either: do you mean send recordings to one another, meet in person, chat over skype?

    if you’re okay with chatting over skype, i’m fine with trying that out. i will check if it’s easy to record talks. then i could publish it on the blog.

    from what you understand you have some conflicting or negative feelings in relation to having this talk documented [“transcribe it to the blog or whatever i dont care about that (dont want to hinder it, dont want to support it)”} and i would like to have more clarity in that. maybe asking you live would work better than making a question out of it here.

    since there’s been a lot of text in this message i would like to repeat again a question i’ve asked two times so far and i will do it with big letters in order to make it catch your eye. this is a question i would like to have response to asap (as soon as possible).

    PLEASE NOTICE THIS QUESTION !!!!

    ARE YOU WILLING TO HAVE A CHAT WITH ME (on gmail, skype, msn, yahoo) TO DECIDE A TIME FRAME AND HOW TO DO THIS TALK?

    take care,
    milla

  26. + IF THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION ABOUT CHATTING IS ‘YES’. WHAT DATE AND TIME WOULD WORK FOR YOU?

    that’s all. =)

  27. and adding to anyone reading this, including daniel:

    daniel, you wrote: “this is exactly the same as 2 years ago… you write tons of text and you have a lot of time to do this… i have a busy life and i cant even read through all of this…”

    well. some years ago i came to budapest in person to have a meeting with daniel and danile stood me up, saying that something similar to – that since i had been in romania that this was basically ‘on my way’ (to finland i guess, HITCH HIKING i’d like to add..) so that it wouldn’t matter that much that they guy didn’t bother to tell me in advance that the meeting was ‘off’.

    so i would disagree with daniel’s simplification of our communication ‘problems’ lying in me writing ‘too much’ text [the impression i’ve gotten so far is that any push towards talking about daniel’s sexism is ‘too much’]

    GIVE A SPECIFIC NUMBER THAT IS NOT “TOO MUCH” FOR YOU. STOP WHINING!!

  28. and again,

    the “stop whining!!” comment was an unarticulated way of saying: Daniel, i really want to have this talk wtih you about everyday male chauvinism, and it’s frustrating for me to be exposed to your male chauvinism while trying to arrange how to do this talk. (i’m noticing emc examples in all your replies so far..)

    i have an immense appreciation for you participating in this, at the same time as i have an increasing need for safety, ease, support and understanding while speaking with you.

    having a text chat with you, or you setting a time and date for a text chat, where we would take maybe half an hour up to an hour (i’m with sadness and hurt, irritation and anger, remembering more than 50 chats with you where it’s been difficult for me to receive direct answers from you to my direct questions – with this in mind, i’m assuming we would need up to an hour to decide time frame and ‘method’ for having this talk) having

    1) you setting a time and date and place (msn, skype etc) for a
    2) TEXT chat
    3) where we talk about how to continue the emc talk in a way that would work for us both and
    4) including time frame, and ‘how to’
    5) would give me a sense of ease and safety in this talk with you.

    you can continue ‘whining’ or complaining and disagreeing as you wish.. i would just like for you to as well be more concrete / specific in your requests (see the above as an example).

    and to be more ‘judgmental’ again: you saying that i ‘have more time’ for this than you, triggers a need for ‘fairness’ in me.

    take care,
    milla

  29. i sent this as an sms to daniel:

    “Hello daniel, i share some your feelings of frustration about our emc talk. Would you be willing to have a text chat with me over gmail faecbook or skype to decide a time frame and some agreed upon ‘method’ ‘conduct’ for our talk? It would give me a sense of safety and ease. /milla”

  30. why i say february is cause i dont have regular net access and if you give me answers in 15 word pages length it takes hours just to read through the text, extract the sentences with question marks and think about answers.. i dont have this time

    i will try an approach maybe this 1-2 sentence model could work:
    a lot of what you are writing are stories about me or about `us` in which you try to grasp the error of my ways…

    what did you want me to do in those situations?
    for example: not get naked as i please in front of you
    ok sorry for that… is it over now? or what is the requirement of something being talked out?

  31. hello daniel,

    i’m terrified. i’m scared. and very sad. i hear anger and contempt from you, maybe this is not what you are trying to say, but this is what i hear. i see you as pushing all my concerns aside and putting yourself on stage (“i’m a victim!! i’m bored!! i don’t have time!!”.. “you are demanding!! you take too much space!! get over your pain, i have nothing to do with it!!”) this is how i hear you. maybe it is not what you a trying to say or how you are feeling. i have a fear of not being heard, and you ‘taking over’ and doing everything according to whatever you wish at any given moment without consulting me or checking for what i need. i feel very disconnected. very very unsafe.

    i would like to feel safer in our connection. i would like to experience that there IS a connection and not just two fearful frustrated persons clashing and trashing against one another.

    i would like to have an agreement on HOW to speak things through and WHEN we will speak things through. this would help me in feeling SAFER with you. as far as i understand from what you’ve said so far, you could see yourself having a chat with me about these things in february. is this what you are saying?

    i’m okay with waiting until then. how about us having a chat on skype, on saturday february 5th, 12 o’clock? would that work for you?

    i would like to work on a better connection with you. and i can’t do that comfortably when i don’t trust you to hear me out. i want some clear structure for how to do this talk. i don’t want your anger and contempt. (or whatever other feelings you are writing from. maybe you were completely neutral and calm. even caring. i don’t know). i’m speaking from a place of fear and hurt. that’s why i’m trying to push for something more safe for me (us working on TIME LIMIT for this talk. us working on HOW to do this talk. us getting to an agreement on how to do this in a way that makes SENSE for BOTH.)

    i can’t make these decisions by myself. and i experience in this talk that you easily skip answering questions. so i would feel safer doing this in a direct talk with you (ie chatting in text or with voice over skype)

    i know you have said before that your ex girlfriend exposing herself as sensitive to you ‘triggers’ you to dominate her. i don’t know if this is what is going on with you now. i’m completely ‘naked’ i have nothing to hide. i’m totally afraid of you. i need safety.

    i want to know NOW if we will have a chat in february and WHEN and HOW we will have it. Okay?

  32. this was sent as an sms: “how about us having a chat on skype, on saturday february 5th, 12 o’clock? would that work for you? / milla”

  33. sms from daniel: “yes but i have to check the exact date if it fits next week”

    my response: “can you send a confirmation of the chatting time by sms or as a comment on the blog, when you know, next week?”

  34. daniel’s response: “ja”

  35. […] so sick listening to speeches about how ‘sexist men – sexist men should not be left out in the street to freeze and hunger’ (WHAT THE […]

  36. […] been a willingness to connect and talk with me from last autumn, when I myself from the moment I suggested we would talk about EMC [after exchanging 20-30 sms' when starting to talk again] experienced the behavior I role-played […]

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