FUCK OFF! Not taking this shit anymore.

31 Responses

Julian, on November 9, 2009 at 5:09 am said:

While I know women can sexually abuse children and other women, and can, in theory, be sexually abusive to anyone, that in this context, I find it difficult to impossible to believe Dani’s version of reality. Unless she is twice his size, I cannot imagine a scenario in which a man is “made to have sex” with a woman. Sorry. It doesn’t work that way. Men can be ambivalent about what they want to do, and look back on something and realise they wish they hadn’t done it, consensually, but what’s this “she made me have sex with her” shit?! I mean, really.

I say this not because women are “incapable” of being sexually abusive to men. A woman could, of course, molest a man while he sleeps. She could engage him in sexual activity while he sleeps in such a way that there’s no consent present at the point the behavior begins. Some men are survivors of sexual abuse as children and can be triggered by anything sexual, and can dissociate. I get all that. (Been there, done that: with men. Decided that since I’m so easily triggered, the only caring decision I can make is to no longer be sexual with other people, men in my case since I’m gay.)

But even in the little bits of correspondence he and I have had–me a stranger to him–he has behaved in typically male supremacist ways, avoiding and evading accountability, blaming a woman for everything, not owning his own shit.

He has most certainly shown himself to be someone who is adamantly unwilling to be publicy, or even privately and interpersonally, accountable to his sexist behavior, from my experience. I’ve known many profeminist/antisexist heteromen who are great in public, doing actions, writing strong statements in support of women, but who still fuck over women in many ways interpersonally, and won’t own it. They won’t own the psychological game playing, the manipulation, the cowardice, the acting from privileges they will or won’t even acknowledge they have. I’ve seen a lot in 25 years from the men who say they respect women.

So, here’s my challenge to Gabor: find men who Dani MUST be accountable to, who he works with politically or in any other way, who are his friends, who are his colleagues, who are part of groups he is in, and HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE. If his story doesn’t have a section where he did something sexist or male supremacist to Milla, guess what? He’s not being honest.

He has demonstrated he will not be accountable to me in part because I’m a stranger and in part because he’s sick of dealing with all this shit.

As if Milla isn’t?!

Why does he get to control WHEN he deals with his sexism?? Why kind of profeminism is THAT? And why aren’t there men in the Budapest group who know him well enough to hold him accountable, and actually believe that he is capable of sexist behavior?

What man isn’t capable of it? What man isn’t capable of lying in self-serving ways?

The measure of this man’s antisexism is the degree to which he will, somewhere, publicly, own what he’s done and be responsible for it. And not continue to allow his silence to stigmatise a woman, to cause her female friends to accept his version of reality ONLY.

So, men in the antisexism group: when are you going to act? What will it take? I have absolutely no leverage with him. He can ignore me and I can’t do shit about it. But YOU guys, you who know him, who do political work with him, CAN. So DO IT.

And make it public.

Reply
- Pre Kaarina, on November 9, 2009 at 7:15 am said:
  
  “I find it difficult to impossible to believe Dani’s version of reality. Unless she is twice his size, I cannot imagine a scenario in which a man is “made to have sex” with a woman.”
  
  I can easily imagine and it doesn’t cxome with the size difference. When Milla is displaying the same behavior towards Dani as in this very writing, shouting obscene-this, obscene-that in all caps, how probable it is that she says something like “I shit on your feelings”. I think that is exactly what happened. Her coercion was doubtly physical, but emotional, abusive speech.
  
  It is still coercion.
  
  Now, we have two versions of a story which I personally think are on equal footing, there is no definite proof to support either one. Why should I believe Milla? I am antisexist, Milla being female should not matter.
  
  Milla definitely has a nested interest, where Dani has none, he admits his guilt, or at least has admitted it to me. Dani’s name is tarnished and women entering in relationship with him do have a hint of what will face them. Unless, of course, Dani changes. Even then his name is tarnished forever, so why bother making the change. It is like giving a life-sentence.
  
  It doesn’t make any sense. As an antisexist I expect equal reasoning abilities regardless of sex. Milla is like a trash journalist.
  
  “Decided that since I’m so easily triggered, the only caring decision I can make is to no longer be sexual with other people, men in my case since I’m gay.)”
  
  If Milla was a lesbian she would cease to see women as saints.
  
  “blaming a woman for everything, not owning his own shit.”
  
  He has admitted his guilt to me. This is not typical male supremacist behavior since it is found in women also. Is Milla owning her crud? How about if Milla made a list of your own errors in relationships?
  
  “He has most certainly shown himself to be someone who is adamantly unwilling to be publicy, or even privately and interpersonally, accountable to his sexist behavior, from my experience.”
  
  In your experience, I can’t deny that, but he has told me, though.
  
  “He has demonstrated he will not be accountable to me in part because I’m a stranger and in part because he’s sick of dealing with all this shit.
  
  As if Milla isn’t?!”
  
  Apparently not.
  I do not think he has any trust in Milla’s way of handling things, coming up and shouting obscene all capitals. Milla behaves like a typical raging alcoholic with tantrums and not wanting to take a look at the mirror.
  
  “The measure of this man’s antisexism is the degree to which he will, somewhere, publicly, own what he’s done and be responsible for it.”
  
  I think it is public enough when he has told me when I have asked about it. Now I am simply asking Milla to do the same, to come forward and display where she has been abusive to males.
  Milla has previously said that we are all sexist. Now I want to ask how she has been sexist towards Dani and she throws a tantrum.
  For me it shows that she is massively guilty, which I do not really care that much, but that she is acting as a hypocrite. She expects males to do more admitting than she is herself willing to do.
  
  Reply
  - sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 1:23 pm said:
    
    by Milla
    
    Stacy wrote:
    “I can easily imagine and it doesn’t cxome with the size difference. When Milla is displaying the same behavior towards Dani as in this very writing, shouting obscene-this, obscene-that in all caps, how probable it is that she says something like “I shit on your feelings”. I think that is exactly what happened. Her coercion was doubtly physical, but emotional, abusive speech.
    
    It is still coercion.”
    
    I can also easily imagine a lot of different things. I hope that you are not just imagining but have actually asked Dani what the hell she meant by “sleeping with” and “forcing to physically please”.
    
    I NEVER SAID “i shit on you feelings” and then went to lie close with dani. THIS NEVER HAPPENED. this is something that you, Stacy, are imagining.
    
    and it would be good to see Dani’s words in this and not just your imagination. also ask Dani if she was raped by me. and sexually harassed.
    
    it would be nice to have Dani’s version (however fucked up it might be) instead of your imagination speaking against my experience of a HIGHLY ABUSIVE RELATION. (how fucked up is that? you imagining things. instead of just listening?)
Pre Kaarina, on November 9, 2009 at 6:16 am said:

For Milla: It is up to you if you have lost a friend or not. I think you do not want your views/tactics challenged, and that is the “female supremacist” way of dealing with things. That kind of behavior irritates/is threatening to males. You do not even give males benefit of calling them with grammatically correct pronouns.
In spite of what I said above, Dani has acted in a foolish and sexist manner, which I cannot deny. When you are shouting obscene words I can easily believe you use similar type of coercion for Dani.

You don’t want to listen to anyone except your feminist supremacist buddies, who are as incapacitated socially as you are. I and Petra are soon becoming your only true friends. You take it as an insult if I treat you with the same measures as I treat Dani, I think that is in truest sense antisexism.

Why can’t you take a look at the mirror and see what happened in CrimethOnc Convergence in Pittsburgh with disruptors? The disruptors clearly had a point, but their way of convening their message was ludicrous, they told whites to go back to Europe. So, the contents of their critic was overshadowed by the idiocy.

Some whites joined with the disruptors thinking they were more radical than the rest of the people. I have felt the same with you, that you are a radical feminist in a more radical manner than, say, the 19 other feminists that were for your ban, which I still think was unjustified. Those people who sided with the disruptors were ashamed of their white skins.

I have been soft-spoken among radical feminists even though they badmouth transpeople and prostitutes, in a way submissive because they have cissexual privilege and flaunt it while I don’t. I came to think, “why should I defend a person more privileged than I am?”. This is your struggle. I do not feel any guilt or shame among cissexual women.

What comes to Petra and her sayings, she has hard time expressing her emotions in English.

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 9:36 am said:
  
  by Milla
  
  Hello Stacy,
  
  I repeat what i said in this blog post about our friendship:
  
  “Petra and Stacy are both out of my life. There’s no space to talk of Dani’s abuse in their world. Instead it’s “you should stop stalking” and “you sexually abused” and “take a look at yourself”. And Petra saying to my face, last time we met: “I thought you wanted Dani to fuck you really hard this summer”. Not bothering to explain what she meant by that.
  
  The only thing i can say at the moment is. FUCK OFF! all you people who are there protecting seriously abusive men. FUCK OFF! all of you who refuse to support women who’ve been in intimate relations and been emotionally and psychologically abused. FUCK OFF! all you fucking horrible people who have no sensitivity whatsoever, but the only thing you can do is to BLAME. Fuck off.”
  
  this is what i need. and this i what i want. you can continue your verbal abuse.
  
  i don’t care. i might be able to deal with it later on in life. right now i just can’t take this shit. dani IS abusive to women in INTIMATE RELATIONS. dani DOES destroy a persons SELF-WORTH and SELF-ESTEEM in INTIMATE RELATIONS. dani IS lying about DEALING with her shit. it’s not enough to say “okay i’m sexist” and then do nothing about it.
  
  good luck with you life.
  
  i really don’t give a fuck right now. i need to take care of myself. and you are no friend of mine.
  
  Reply
  - sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 9:42 am said:
    
    by Milla
    
    AND YES. I DO OWN THAT I HAVE FUCKED UP SHITTY WAYS WITH DRINKING AND AGGRESSION and THAT IT WAS FUCKED UP TO TRY TO KISS DANI. AND THAT IT WAS FUCKED UP TO STAY ENGAGED WITH A PERSON TREATING ME LIKE SHIT AND TREATING HER LIKE SHIT BACK.
    
    AND I DO OWN THAT I DON*T WANT TO BE IN RELATIONS WITH PEOPLE WHO simply don’t care about me. including you and petra.
    
    AND i own THAT I GOT INTO ABUSIVE MASTURBATION, hatred and despise of myself and my body, WHEN DRUNK, and that getting drunk was also about despise of myself and my body, AND i totally own that i got INTO MISOGYNISTIC SELF-HATRED AND SUBMISSIVE IDOLIZATION AND FAITHFUL HETEROSEXUAL BELIEF that dani is a “good guy” “meaning well”.
    
    i let her define my reality.
    i let her take over my feelings and life.
    
    and i will not go under that shit again.
    
    Stacy, both you and Petra have seriously unsupportive and damaging behaviors when it comes to dealing with a person who’s been exposed to the type of mental violence that i’ve been exposed to. [and yes. this is a political difference. and this is a way we see reality different.]
    
    you are no friend of mine. pähkinä is a friend. you are not.
  - sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 1:35 pm said:
    
    by Milla
    
    stacy wrote:
    “What comes to Petra and her sayings, she has hard time expressing her emotions in English.”
    
    i’ve had several conversations with petra, and i think her english is excellent. she’s speaks it fluently. so i disagree with your judgement of her english skills.
    
    she’s also been capable of talking about feelings (this being an “off and on” thing, though)
    
    so. i feel you’re totally belittling the situation of what it’s like talking about getting abused by someone you love intimately, and listening to petra diminishing it. and then coming with a harsh comment like that, refusing to explain it any further.
    
    you: “stop stalking dani. you raped her.” and petra: “i thought you wanted to get fucked hard by dani.”
    
    how fucked up is that?
    
    i’m talking about ABUSE! and none of you is saying this shit to dani. instead you are apologetic and making shitloads of excuses to a guy who is lying to your face.
Pre Kaarina, on November 9, 2009 at 2:15 pm said:

Let me start by pointing out how privileged you are.

You use obscene language and shouting. I think people feel sorry about you/wanting to help, but generally think you are an OK person except a little bit emotional.
If this happened to me, that would be a backlash to masculine behavior patterns and I would be seen a bully.
People with masculine identities would be seen flat-out abusive, having difficulties with anger control.

You can just pull this show because you are privileged and people are genuinely listening to you. At least Pähkinä is still. I feel like an exorcist.

“AND YES. I DO OWN THAT I HAVE FUCKED UP SHITTY WAYS WITH DRINKING AND AGGRESSION and THAT IT WAS FUCKED UP TO TRY TO KISS DANI. AND THAT IT WAS FUCKED UP TO STAY ENGAGED WITH A PERSON TREATING ME LIKE SHIT AND TREATING HER LIKE SHIT BACK.”

Do I hear an admission of sexual harassment at least? Just spit it out!

“AND I DO OWN THAT I DON*T WANT TO BE IN RELATIONS WITH PEOPLE WHO simply don’t care about me. including you and petra.”

Wrong, we are the ones that want you to stop wallowing in self-pity, martyrdom, victimization, alcoholism, your old behavior patterns that make you weak and vulnerable. How about facing what you fear most? I mean, what do you have to lose? You have been talking about suicide a lot. How about living to the fullest, with no fear? I mean, death is plentiful, if you end up more miserable than you are now, you can always die.

People in the Social Center do not abuse me probably because they see me as a strong and confident person and I am such because I trust people, I have trusted you and Dani and neither one of you has failed me once. People act honorable if you trust they will.

“[and yes. this is a political difference. and this is a way we see reality different.] ”

You kick us out of your friendship like you were yourself banned from the Social Center. I am sure that if you weren’t banned yourself, you would be busy banning others.

“you are no friend of mine. pähkinä is a friend. you are not.”

I can’t speak for Pähkinä, but I guess she is the last one that is meek enough for your domination and tantrums. When Pähkinä comes to senses, you are out of pets. It’s like sitting in a holding tank. You, and your thoughts alone.

What does it take for you to start your new life instead of wanting to end the old one?

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm said:
  
  by Milla
  
  “Wrong, we are the ones that want you to stop wallowing in self-pity, martyrdom, victimization, alcoholism, your old behavior patterns that make you weak and vulnerable. How about facing what you fear most? I mean, what do you have to lose? You have been talking about suicide a lot. How about living to the fullest, with no fear? I mean, death is plentiful, if you end up more miserable than you are now, you can always die.
  
  People in the Social Center do not abuse me probably because they see me as a strong and confident person and I am such because I trust people, I have trusted you and Dani and neither one of you has failed me once. People act honorable if you trust they will.”
  
  I want to live life to the fullest. And that is why I’m choosing to talk about these things even though what i say will be treated like dog shit by others. I am not victimizing myself. I am talking about real power relations.
  
  Are you victimizing yourself when you talk about your fear in relation to cis-people? (i don’t think so. and when i say that i’ve been treated like shit by dani and say when and how. and when i say that i’ve been treated by shit like petra and say when and how. and when i say that i’ve been treated like shit by you and i say when and how.) then you say that i’m throwing a tantrum because of cis-privilege? because of having rape-cards to throw around? because of… wanting the abuse to much that i “attract” it?
  
  could it just be that i’m rightfully pissed of about not being listened to in a sensitive way? hearing clearly misogynist statements being made?
  
  You Are Not Being Treated As An Equal In The Finnish Scene. Equals Get Invited to Parties. Equals Get to Hang Out With One Another Outside Being a Machine For the Action or the Cause.
  
  You Are In Heavy Denial If You Think You Are Being Treated As An Equal In The Scene Stacy.
  
  You are fucking insane if you really seriously think that we as individuals can affect the bigger structures. This is sounding like the American Dream. That “everybody can make it, if they just work hard enough”. There are no glass ceilings and oppression. It’s all up to the individual.
  
  You call yourself exorcist. Why don’t you start with the people over at the social centre then? Try to get yourself invited to their social circles, and see how accepted you are? [we are fucking outcasts and i thought this would be clear to you by now. no?]
  
  you say that you trust people stacy? one of the first things you told me is that you are a loner and that you don’t trust people. you are contradicting yourself. there’s some weird self-image that you are projecting. “The Exorcist Who Trusts”.
  
  Stacy wrote:
  “I can’t speak for Pähkinä, but I guess she is the last one that is meek enough for your domination and tantrums. When Pähkinä comes to senses, you are out of pets. It’s like sitting in a holding tank. You, and your thoughts alone.”
  
  shit stacy. i guess i will send this to pähkinä. maybe she has something to say about this herself.
  
  domination. tantrums. coming to her senses. out of pets.
  
  you speak like sect people. saying that you and petra are my “only real friends”. calling pähkinä a pet controlled by my domination and tantrums.
  
  stacy. you are seriously fucked up on this one. like seriously fucked up.
  
  AND: NO I HAVE NOT RAPED DANI.
  
  Reply
  - Pre Kaarina, on November 9, 2009 at 4:08 pm said:
    
    Let’s start with statistics: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html
    Quarter of rapes prove to be false accusations. It is not misogyny to say that there are false rape accusations. The strongest feminists suggest two per cent. None says zero.
    
    “I want to live life to the fullest. And that is why I’m choosing to talk about these things”
    
    Talk is cheap. It does not lead anywhere. At least if the talk is done in a fashion taken from mudslinging-journals.
    
    “I am talking about real power relations.”
    
    I believe it, but since when talking has changed power relations?
    
    >Are you victimizing yourself when you talk about your fear in relation to cis-people?
    
    I have chosen to stand up and face cissexuals.
    
    >then you say that i’m throwing a tantrum because of cis-privilege? because of having rape-cards to throw around? because of… wanting the abuse to much that i “attract” it?
    
    No, you don’t want abuse any more than I did. I have received more than 400 catcalls, a dozen threats on my life, the same amount of actually people trying to murder me, my home has been burglarized and I have been stabbed. This happened 5-10 years ago. Now I do not receive any threats and people treat me if not with dignity, without actual molestation. I think it is because I took time off and became confident and started trusting people.
    You are in a privileged position in what comes to throwing a tantrum. You can throw allegations and accusations without anyone asking for proof, just trusting your word and your emotional upheaval. Well, I don’t.
    (Petra says that you should become acquainted with transaction analysis)
    There was a pro from the area occupied by the Russian Federation visiting Petra once and she was crying and playing pity-party and asking me to help her and I knew that she had a terrible childhood. When we went out of the house I said that she could just stop acting, because if her childhood account was right, she would have been a near psychopath and the tears faked. She stopped crying right there and then and started smiling.
    I know nothing about your past. Should I take your word for everything that you say? Should I take the Social Center’s words for granted, not asking minutes from your exclusion? Should I just dismiss Dani just because he happens to male and not in control of his behavior?
    I don’t know about profeminism, what room and liberation do men have and take for themselves. I think you are verbally as abusive as a worst kind of wife-beater yet the males cannot lift their finger against you. They are like Victorian ladies, with anger building inside them. When the anger comes out, it comes out as misogyny, strangling and idiocies like that.
    
    The less men are threatened, the less they will protest.
    
    “could it just be that i’m rightfully pissed of about not being listened to in a sensitive way? hearing clearly misogynist statements being made?”
    
    You are rightfully pissed at Dani and the Social Center.
    
    “You Are Not Being Treated As An Equal In The Finnish Scene. Equals Get Invited to Parties.”
    
    I always leave parties early so people figure out that I really do not like them.
    
    “You Are In Heavy Denial If You Think You Are Being Treated As An Equal In The Scene Stacy.”
    
    OK, I consider that.
    
    “You are fucking insane”
    
    I think I am bordering insane. Foil hat feels better than most other hats that I have worn.
    
    “Try to get yourself invited to their social circles, and see how accepted you are?”
    
    I have no time for that now and I believe you and Karla.
    
    “[we are fucking outcasts and i thought this would be clear to you by now. no?]”
    
    I start with a different assumption. I want to test the assumption that I am not an outcast.
    
    “you say that you trust people stacy? one of the first things you told me is that you are a loner and that you don’t trust people. you are contradicting yourself. ”
    
    Of course I am contradicting, the world is paradoxical. I have opened my house to people that are strangers, but not without the awareness that I could be massively abused. Every time I trust a person it is testing my assumption – people are good if they are given the trust and opportunity (and this world is a safe place to life), but each and every time I cannot help but think all the times I have been abused in the past. If I just kept thinking that people are mean, selfish, greedy, abusive dirtbags I would probably write as much about suicide as you do, I don’t like alcohol, but if I did, I would also drink as much as you do.
    
    So, I take a conscious risk. The Social Center is not fitting into my Weltanschauung and it bothers me.
    
    “i guess i will send this to pähkinä. maybe she has something to say about this herself.”
    
    OK.
    
    >stacy. you are seriously fucked up on this one. like seriously fucked up.
    
    Repeating accusation does not make it any truer in my level of privileges.
    
    >AND: NO I HAVE NOT RAPED DANI.
    
    You have been sexually coercive, though. You are both guilty. You cannot change Dani’s behavior if he doesn’t want to, but change yours.
  - sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 7:13 pm said:
    
    Stacy wrote: ((((
    Let’s start with statistics: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html
    Quarter of rapes prove to be false accusations. It is not misogyny to say that there are false rape accusations. The strongest feminists suggest two per cent. None says zero.
    And Stacy wrote:
    Talk is cheap. It does not lead anywhere. At least if the talk is done in a fashion taken from mudslinging-journals. )))))
    
    If you start with statistics like that, then I would like to start by discrediting your sources.. You were making comments before about me behaving like a “trash journalist” as if you mean something bad by it, and at the same time you quote Fox News.. Infamous for twisted propaganda and infotainment.
    http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/networks/foxnews/foxnews.html
    häh?!
    
    Stacy wrote: (((((
    You are in a privileged position in what comes to throwing a tantrum. You can throw allegations and accusations without anyone asking for proof, just trusting your word and your emotional upheaval. )))))
    
    Hasn’t it been proven beyond any doubt to you by now, that people DO NOT listen to me. DO NOT trust what I say. CONSTANTLY ask for “proof”, and even when it’s presented clearly, people STILL DON’T BELIEVE what I say, but instead choose to think there’s something wrong with the way i’m saying things (so be it screaming, whispering, singing or writing) ?!
    
    Stacy wrote: (((((
    I know nothing about your past. Should I take your word for everything that you say? Should I take the Social Center’s words for granted, not asking minutes from your exclusion? Should I just dismiss Dani just because he happens to male and not in control of his behavior? )))))
    
    Are you seriously making excuses on biological grounds? That a person is not accountable for their actions because of sex? Dani is as much in control of her behavior as you and I (no matter how nuts we are – we ARE in control).
    
    I’m not expecting you to believe anything that anybody says. Just that you don’t necessarily have to jump on a band wagon saying that i’m a rapist and that I should shut up about what i’ve experienced. That you shouldn’t necessarily protect the person that i’ve been seriously messed about by from getting confronted and pushed to be ACCOUNTABLE for what she’s done. [see your quote from facebook in the blog post above.]
    
    You don’t know Dani either. But you choose to shut me up with her rape charges.
    
    At first you say that I’m privileged cause “everybody” believes me. And then you totally believe Dani, and not me. Once again – logic missing.. Somehow I see Dani as the one being privileged here. And me being the one who has to produce “proof” and explain myself, and justify all my words and actions.
    
    Stacy wrote: (((((
    I don’t know about profeminism, what room and liberation do men have and take for themselves. I think you are verbally as abusive as a worst kind of wife-beater yet the males cannot lift their finger against you. They are like Victorian ladies, with anger building inside them. When the anger comes out, it comes out as misogyny, strangling and idiocies like that.
    
    The less men are threatened, the less they will protest. )))))
    
    From this I once again see the misogynistic “the woman is the root of all evil” thinking. If I shut my mouth, there would be no wife-beating, there would be no stranglings (?!), there would be no misogyny (?!). If I didn’t talk about it – it wouldn’t exist (?!). It’s the TALKING about the experiences of abuse that lead to the abuse.
    
    VERY twisted logic going on.
    
    So if I meet with you and Petra again, after all the verbal abuse I’ve faced from you two now. “good hard fuck” “rapist”. Does this mean that I will be misogynistic towards you? Fuck you and rape you? [Or is it only for bio-men not being able to “control” themselves, as you were saying before?]
    
    Stacy quoted and wrote: ((((((
    “Try to get yourself invited to their social circles, and see how accepted you are?”
    
    I have no time for that now and I believe you and Karla. )))))
    
    Could you explain which Karla you are talking about, and how this person have anything to do with people in the social centre (and the finnish scene in general) being exclusionary?
    
    Stacy quoted and wrote: (((((
    >AND: NO I HAVE NOT RAPED DANI.
    
    You have been sexually coercive, though. You are both guilty. You cannot change Dani’s behavior if he doesn’t want to, but change yours. )))))
    
    HERE I AGREE WITH YOU! And I still think it’s massively insulting that you are protective of Petra and make shitty excuses about the fucked up comment she made about me wanting a “hard fuck” (No! – I want HUGS and CARE and UNDERSTANDING, and Real SOCIAL CHANGE. Not just Slogans)
    
    That was NOT language “confusion” or a “misunderstanding”. Just as the racist comment she made on the profile picture of the anti-racist facebook group was not a “misunderstanding” because of her “poor english skills”. She speaks goddamn perfect english.
    
    Stacy, you are lying, and making excuses.
  - sosiaalikeskus, on November 23, 2009 at 9:37 pm said:
    
    by Milla
    
    a part of a private mail to stacy. cause i still feel an interest in trying to sort this out with her. even though i feel she’s been super clumpsy and sexist (brutal) in this.
    
    i wanted to make clear that there was some real differences still in what i agree to having done wrong in relation to dani’s story of “forced sleeping”.
    
    here..here..here..here..present time..
    
    THE ONLY THING I*M OPENING UP from the things you wrote in your reply:
    
    as to the sexual harassment.
    
    i asked to kiss dani (!!). she agreed (!!). we kissed. she had a pouted mouth. twice i tried to kiss with open mouth. she opened her mouth wide. i teased her and said that she should make up her mind, if she want or not. (it was said in a nasty teasing way, and)
    
    it was clear to me that way that she didn’t want it. (when i tried beyond pusu [pouted mouth kiss])
    
    this is what happened.
    
    >> i asked. not in a “i don’t care about your fucking feelings dani”. but in a neutral way: could we kiss?
    
    << she said yes.
    
    and then a physical no with her opening her mouth when i tried something else than a pusu.
    
    —-
    
    dani is omitting the fact that she gave consent to a kiss. and that i asked for consent to a kiss.
    
    (it still doesn't make it okay that i went beyond the pusu and tried something else, overriding her physical no, and teasing her. i was the one telling her this afterwards. that it wasn't okay. and even when consent was given doesn't mean that you will feel okay with what happened afterwards at another occasion.)
    
    dani is lying about the 'forced' physical "pleasing"
    dani is lying about the 'forced' "sleeping with"
    dani is lying to you about us having "talked this through" [wasn't that quite clear in my reaction to what you wrote?]
    
    dani has been lying about a lot of things. dani is lying about a lot of things.
    
    so. when you are talking about my sexual harassment. i feel we are still speaking about two completely different things. because you agree to and defend a lot of dani's claims that i can honestly not, and absolutely not agree to. because they are lies. (not just differing realities. or different interpretations. but actual obfuscation and untruthful reconstruction of what really occurred.)
sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 2:16 pm said:

by Milla

Stacy wrote:
“If Milla was a lesbian she would cease to see women as saints.”

once again. your imagination. in this you are assuming that there’s not the least bit of lesbian in me.. [Homosexuality: Enduring emotional, romantic, or sexual attraction to individuals of one’s own gender, sex.] and once again: i disagree with your judgement. i’m “bi” or “pan” or however i should call it, so i also see myself as homosexual (even though i’m heteronormative – NOT a good thing – meaning that there is still a lot of homophobia in me).

i do not see any human being as a saint. i see all of us as equals (or that we SHOULD be equals). and i ALSO do recognize power structures that strongly prevents us from being equal. one of them being (basically the only oppression i feel as real in my life) being born with female genitals and being socialized and treated as a “woman”.

i do recognize the privilege i have in “fitting in” to the gender norm, or as you would define it being cis-sexual. i also recognize that i refuse to see gender as something “essential” or “real”. to me it will always just be

no saints
just

humans

and human behaviors, that we then because of socialization have been taught to value in different ways depending on what type of body is performing it.

i can also say that it is scary for me to talk about the differences that i feel in having with my experiences, as being oppressed for being categorized and socialized into “femaleness” in this society because of being born with a certain set of genitals.

and that i see similarities with oppression that you have for representing femaleness from a trans-perspective. our oppressions are related to the same mechanisms. and yet not at all the same. and me: being a bio-woman have privileges in comparison with you as a trans. this i do not deny. i’m not seen as “other” in that sense.

i also do not deny the differences.

and i find it so shitty that you are saying that “look this woman is writing in all caps so she must be obscene and a rapist and guilty of this and that.”

for fucks sake. you left a message with a knife stabbed through it on the door of a place, because of them not using sensitive wording in relation to trans. does this strong emotional reaction also imply that you carry guilt? that you are obscene? a rapist?

i don’t get the logic in what you are saying. but for sure. i can recognize that i have privileges over you (cis). in the same as you have certain privileges over me, being born in a male body, having experienced being treated as a male-bodied person in this society (causing a different type of socialization).

and the messages written over facebook and here are just streams of contempt for a person who has experienced abuse. and wanting to talk about it. saying that i’m getting some “advantages” from doing so. claiming that there are “rape cards” that women use. how misogynist is that? (and in your description i also hear that there is some serious phobia towards trans – depicted as rapists and sexual deviants) but this is not related to this case. where Dani. no saint. a human being. had control and power over me, and chose to exercise it in various fucked up ways. one of them being me talking endlessly with her about her abusive ways. and she avoiding, evading, starting more abusive relations, and writing to me in caps “leave me the fuck alone”.

and you go along with this guy. saying that it’s an antisexist thing to tell me i’m stalking and raping. come on.. AND excusing petra for saying that i’m just longing for that “good hard fuck”.

antisexism? i wouldn’t call this that. i don’t care how much woman both of you are together: You Are Definitely No Saints.

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 2:47 pm said:
  
  by Milla
  
  Stacy. You are behaving like a Royal Ass. (And i hope there are people around you capable of telling you this. such as Laura. or .. Anybody!)
  
  Reply
- Pre Kaarina, on November 10, 2009 at 7:45 pm said:
  
  “and i find it so shitty that you are saying that “look this woman is writing in all caps so she must be obscene and a rapist and guilty of this and that.””
  
  How do you think I find the practical truth with what the two of you have written to me?
  
  “for fucks sake. you left a message with a knife stabbed through it on the door of a place, because of them not using sensitive wording in relation to trans. does this strong emotional reaction also imply that you carry guilt? that you are obscene? a rapist?”
  
  You might not believe me, but there was no strong emotion involved in my part doing the act. I wanted them to understand what they were doing wrong. No conventional ways worked.
  It was the same as taking you to the Social Center. I acted with total calmness.
  
  ” in the same as you have certain privileges over me, being born in a male body, having experienced being treated as a male-bodied person in this society (causing a different type of socialization).”
  
  Yes, being brutally beaten in childhood for being such a sissy and wuss until I pushed one of the most aggressive ones teasing me down the stairs. He became disabled for the rest of his life. After that nobody messed with me.
  In Finland, males are raised as warriors, meaning beaten and humiliated until the only thing they can feel is hate. Somehow my alcoholic father enjoyed his part of doing this humiliation. It has been done to him as a child.
  I admit my male body gave me advantage once, I was able to beat World Female Ski Champion Grete Ingeborg Nykkelmo in 15 kilometers.
  I also got to work in a stone quarry in sweltering 35°C heat while nearly all women worked indoors in air-contitioned offices. I still didn’t complain, some men worked in roofs when it was twenty degrees hotter. People came from Africa and complained how hot it was to work outdoors.
  To be honest, 70-years old Barbara Smith did shovel gravel for work in the gold mines.
  
  This was just about all that I got to enjoy male “privilege” and I have to say in this conversation I use it by understanding males, how they risk getting into street brawls, how they are brutally beaten as a kid and grow up timid and mean.
  
  “claiming that there are “rape cards” that women use. how misogynist is that?”
  
  How about asking Ms. Paula Kokkonen about that, she has used the rape card.
  
  “(one of them being me talking endlessly with her about her abusive ways. and she avoiding, evading, starting more abusive relations, and writing to me in caps “leave me the fuck alone”.”
  
  Yes, that is a natural reaction to the tactic you have chosen, but you refuse to see it. Why are you choosing a tactic that leads to failure?
  
  “excusing petra for saying that i’m just longing for that “good hard fuck”.”
  
  Petra explained that you wanted Dani sexually, but Dani didn’t want you and this makes you bitter and rejected.
  
  Reply
rat, on November 9, 2009 at 2:27 pm said:

milla,
you’re not getting any support because your ‘tactics’ are abusive. you base your discourse on quasi-religious feminism sanctifying anything that’s socially female and demonizing anything that’s socially male. this morality is taking you nowhere and you should know it by now: the thoughts you publish on this blog are moving further and further away from immediate reality where power relations happen. by this you miss your own position as an abuser since in reality the fact that you’re female means less than you’d like to think – yes, you can be both female and in the position of power. your (ex)friend has already noted that by this everybody misses your (legitimate) critiques. i’m telling you this only so that you think about your own position and how power manifests in it. i am convinced that your current self-righteous pose is leading you, as well as antisexist struggle in general, nowhere.

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 3:08 pm said:
  
  by Milla
  
  hello rat,
  
  1, what kind of tactics do i have?
  
  2, could you define them to me? 3, and also could you tell me what tactics would work in order for me to get HELP?
  
  otherwise.. for your information:
  i HAVE NOT TACTIC! (anybody surprised by this..?)
  the only thing i do is to TALK about things from MY PERSPECTIVE without CENSORSHIP. this i do in everyday real life. in interaction with other people. live and electronically. when things get really fucked up: i write on the blog. i also write emails and send them to mailing lists.
  
  i go mad all the time. cause talking doesn’t lead anywhere. if you see this as my tactic, then i absolutely agree with you rat, cause this tactic is really useless, doesn’t change a thing. it really sucks..
  
  rat wrote:
  “the thoughts you publish on this blog are moving further and further away from immediate reality where power relations happen. by this you miss your own position as an abuser since in reality the fact that you’re female means less than you’d like to think – yes, you can be both female and in the position of power.”
  
  some positions of power that i have: i am WHITE. i am ABLEBODIED. i am HETERONORMATIVE. i am a CIS-person. i am born in the RICH EUROPEAN NORTH. i am 34 (not “too old”. not “too young”.) i am HUMAN.
  
  WHAT thoughts that i publish are moving further away from WHAT immediate reality where power relations happen? (the blog is full of immediate reality where power relations happen!)
  
  and fuck yes: being treated as ‘woman’ in this society totally sucks. i can’t even talk about >physical violence< without people immediately running to the rescue obscuring and refusing to talk about the REAL PHYSICAL VIOLENCE but instead feel it really necessary to talk about how i talk about it.. i get told that i'm CRAZY.
  
  i mean. trying to start a sensible discussion on these topics is insane. it literally drives me mad. that. shit! i was in an intimate relation. it wasn't cool, and the guy really needs to deal with her stuff cause what she does drives the women she's with to idiocy and lunacy.
  
  so. i guess. thanks for making to the effort to write some well-thought-through feedback. sorry that i didn't get it.
  
  hope you will reply again. most of the time people just write abusive stuff and refuse to answer my questions. don't know if you're one of them.
  
  take care.
  so long.
  
  Reply
sosiaalikeskus, on November 9, 2009 at 3:40 pm said:

by Milla

Stacy wrote:
“You kick us out of your friendship like you were yourself banned from the Social Center. I am sure that if you weren’t banned yourself, you would be busy banning others.”

I am willing to try to explain the emotional damage it does to me trying to explain abuse to people. In this case you and Petra. You might think that this i weak and showing unnecessary vulnerability. For me it’s important to be able to show weakness. It’s vital to be able to be vulnerable. That’s where being a human lies in for me. Like children. We have a right to love without getting hurt.

We have a right to be seen and listened to and taken seriously and be cared for. And it’s not only the oppressed groups who are supposed to do this caring. Walking on egg-shells while providing comfort and care to the privileged groups.

Stacy. It is not healthy for me to try to talk with you about Dani’s seriously abusive (emotional, psychological) when you then say that i’ve raped her [ask her if i have. ask her if this is what she meant. sure i agree with you that the way she described the situation it surely looks like it. but this is not what happened.] me trying to talk about how this abuse felt. the shit i went through, by myself. trying to get it into Dani’s head and heart that there’s something she’s not doing right. well. you telling me that this is stalking. and that i’ve raped. and then Petra adding “you wanted to be fucked hard by Dani”.

This is not how i build friendships. I don’t function this way. I would call this abuse. Not help. Or support.

And in one thing you are right. I am a different person through going through the whole banning process and witch hunt at the social centre. I’ve been in positions where i’ve kicked a person out from a mailing list without giving enough of an opportunity. I do not deny that I am society as much as anybody else. But i try to fight it as much as i can.

And what you and Petra have right now. Is not friendship. You are looking for a submissive shameful self-hating woman to admit to “rape” and “wanting” a “hard fuck”.

I’m not into that game. Stacy. go do some exorcising on yourself and Petra. I will send a link to this whole discussion to Pähkinä. if she’s up to it she could come and meet with you both, and have a talk. you could try to exorcise on her too if you feel like it.

I know – For Sure – that i’m not up to the kind of process that you have in mind. It would do myself and, i would say no-one else: No Good At All.

I would recommend you talk with Laura first (since she’s been in an abusive relation, and knows what it’s like). And others and see how they view this situation.

I’m not “banning” you. Just saying that what you are doing right now is seriously abusive. Fucked up. Wrong. And i suffer from it (yeah go ahead. call me tantrum throwing victim. rub it in my face how weak and vulnerable i am, not wanting to hear that i should just “shut up” and go for that “hard fuck”).

Reply
Pre Kaarina, on November 10, 2009 at 5:14 am said:

“We have a right to be seen and listened to and taken seriously and be cared for. ”

Do you treat Dani like that? Or anyone else for that matter? Are you listening? Now, there are terribly many people that say that you are out-of-line. How about Riikka Kaihovaara who said that you were mentally disordered, which you admit yourself? How about all the people in satama who could not find any political difference with you but just could not handle you as a person, Taru at the forefront? Did you take them seriously?
Even here, when two people say that you have a wrong tactic, you say you don’t have any tactic. Of course you do, you might not have any strategy, but you have a tactic.

People are fed-up with you pushing them on the corner of the rooftop and over it. They will fight for ther lives, and they will get sympathy from others doing it, whether they are blatantly sexist or not. People do not feel sorry for you but your victims.

I am starting to think like Antti Rautiainen that Riikka Kaihovaara’s intention was a good one. Perhaps she wanted it secret not because it could not stand daylight, but because she knew that you would not understand.

You behave like a narcissist, but I am sure you aren’t one. I think you are an alcoholic rager just like my father. You turn deaf ear to for instance the life and experiences of two prostitutes that you know flesh and blood and listen to Melissa Farley instead.

Perhaps we are in deep denial that we’re raped. Does it serve any point to dig the demons out when not in a controlled therapy environment?

“Walking on egg-shells”

Dani has said that even your friends walk on egg-shells around you. When they see a message their reply is like “oh noooo, it is Milla again”.

“[ask her if i have.”

I sure do. Now, Dani does not want to communicate with you even when I serve as a mediator.
Frankly, it doesn’t matter. You admit to abusive behavior and your language is abusive. I can well imagine that you sh*t on Dani’s feelings, since you do it to everyone else’s feelings as well.

“you telling me that this is stalking.”

I actually don’t know what Dani means by “stalking”. Probably your usual way of writing things about him on the blog. Have you been contacting him through email or phone?

“and then Petra adding “you wanted to be fucked hard by Dani”.”

I am not going to guess what she meant with that, but she later said that Hungarian males like rough sex.

“I do not deny that I am society as much as anybody else. But i try to fight it as much as i can.”

What if the others are doing that as well?

“And what you and Petra have right now. Is not friendship. You are looking for a submissive shameful self-hating woman to admit to “rape” and “wanting” a “hard fuck”.”

So, you want pets, not friends. You don’t want to listen. You take a dump at people’s feelings when they are not the the kind you approve of.

“I will send a link to this whole discussion to Pähkinä. ”

KISS, keep it simple, stupid. You involve more people to this and the more obscure this conflict becomes. There are already 6 women against Dani and 19 feminists against you.

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 10, 2009 at 11:22 am said:
  
  by Milla
  
  Stacy quoted and wrote: (((((
  
  “We have a right to be seen and listened to and taken seriously and be cared for. ”
  
  How about all the people in satama who could not find any political difference with you but just could not handle you as a person, Taru at the forefront? Did you take them seriously? )))))
  
  Yes. I’ve taken these people deadly seriously. Taru was the one who said I would be welcome back if I just don’t talk about FEMINISM. I took them really seriously for a long time. Standing outside in the cold [3 times!!] waiting to have an opportunity to speak with my own voice at the house meeting, while Taru was sitting inside – being a part of the conflict “resolution” group – and actively voting (with a block) to have me say anything by myself. Keeping me outside waiting. Silent. Unheard.
  
  I had an email exchange with Riikka about the mental illness declarations she made.
  
  And she admitted that she had been making projections on me. Saying that she used to cry when she saw her naked body, but that now she’s strong when she’s found feminism. And she was sticking with the idea that there was something mentally wrong with me “not feminism or sexism or politics whatsoever” not important for her to discuss right or wrong. Put a label and shut up. This way I could be a part of the fun crowd too. Get to hang out with Taru and the rest.
  
  I wouldn’t say that Taru was at the forefront. I would say that it was a collective thing. As if blaming Nazism on Hitler (doesn’t make sense to me) it’s not just one person building a community. It’s not only Aleksi Lilleberg denying blatant sexism, saying that I “lack a sense of proportions”. It’s not only Micke Brunila trying to flirt her way out of accountability and real change. It’s not only Markus trying to drag you and me out of the house when we go there and sit and watch a film, waiting for the house meeting to start. It’s not only the 19 persons who sign a petition passed around to their mail box, written about a person that most of them don’t even know, saying that they don’t want to associate with this person. It’s all the people around. Who do not care to stop to listen. Who do not care to stop to think. Like Soile, when she reacted on that I had been told not to speak about feminism in the house. When you and me were standing with our backs against the wall. That first she said “What?!” And then there’s a cold back turned for the sake of “getting the meeting started”. [who cares if only certain people get to speak. or if only certain views can be spoken. “let’s get the meeting started” “we don’t have time”.]
  
  People – real human beings with feelings – are not important in the house. Justice is not important in the house. Honesty and truth is not important in the house. It’s all about status and “not hurting or talking shit about our friends”.
  
  Stacy wrote: ((((
  You behave like a narcissist, but I am sure you aren’t one. I think you are an alcoholic rager just like my father. You turn deaf ear to for instance the life and experiences of two prostitutes that you know flesh and blood and listen to Melissa Farley instead. )))))
  
  I listen to many persons.
  
  Apart from the comments that Petra made about me not being feminist and dirty for dumpstering food. What happened last time I was over visiting: Petra told me that she’s one of the few who survived. A lot of people she knows are dead. That being a prostitute wasn’t a glamorous life. To have to defend herself against physical violence. To get hooked on heroin cause there’s no other way of putting herself through the process of other people using her body. (she said this) To stand on street corners in skimpy clothes for the men who buy – the heroin not only kept her numb, but warm. Cause it’s cold standing there.
  
  I feel I listened to what Petra had to say. And I felt that what she said was real. She’s one of the few who has survived. She’s a survivor.
  
  Stacy wrote: (((((
  Perhaps we are in deep denial that we’re raped. Does it serve any point to dig the demons out when not in a controlled therapy environment? )))))
  
  I don’t know about that. You decide how you want to deal with life. Therapy. or. Unstructured human interaction like this is. Like you are constantly pushing me over the “roof top” with what you’re saying. It seems like you all the time pretend that you have some neutral role in this. Which is far from true. You are not neutral Stacy.
  
  Stacy wrote: (((((
  Dani has said that even your friends walk on egg-shells around you. When they see a message their reply is like “oh noooo, it is Milla again”. ))))
  
  Unless you are more specific. Talk about yourself and how you feel. Or how Petra feels when she sees a message from me. I don’t really have any close friends. I think Dani is mostly talking out of her own experience. And Dani has the power to spread her reality to others. She had the power to convince me that everybody else in the social network we were in hated me. And that she loved me. She had the power to shut me up.
  
  You, Stacy, were using the same tactic. Saying that Pähkinä is just a controlled pet, and that other persons with whom I have political affinity with are just as socially messed up and “incapable” as I am. That you and Petra are my only “real friends”. I think that’s a really manipulative thing to say.
  
  Stacy wrote: (((((
  I sure do. Now, Dani does not want to communicate with you even when I serve as a mediator. )))))
  
  Did Dani ask you to say that I’ve raped her? (mediation usually works that way. That the person helping out the communication is passing on the message between the other parties. The mediation you’re doing right now reminds me a lot of Taru’s methods.)
  
  And about Pähkinä, that I said I would pass this conversation on to her. (and you were saying that there’s no sense in “involving” more people) She makes her own decision if she feels like saying something or not. You are completely fucked up when you are calling her controlled and a pet of mine. This is not me you are “taking a dump on” this is you talking shit about Pähkinä. And I thought she should know. It’s not about involving more people in this. It’s about being fair.
  
  Pähkinä decides herself what she feels like doing. I have no control over her.
  
  To give one example of that: I tried to get her to be friends with Dani. And she didn’t want to. She met with Dani briefly once. And that was enough for her. She didn’t get a good impression of the guy. [And now Pähkinä is going: “I told you so”. and i’m going: “i know..”]
  
  Pähkinä is not a pet. You are totally belittling her by saying something like that.
  
  She’s warm and caring. And surviving. And fighting. Not a mindless “follower”. She doesn’t fit in with the social centre crowd [that you now seem to be defending..?]
  
  Reply
  - Pre Kaarina, on November 10, 2009 at 4:06 pm said:
    
    sosiaalikeskus, on November 10th, 2009 at 11:22 am Said:
    “Taru was the one who said I would be welcome back if I just don’t talk about FEMINISM.”
    
    Your brand of feminism is not wanted anywhere (besides a small circle of academics). I am starting to understand why men hate “Women’s Studies” with such a deep virulence and think feminists are lesbians – – never in any interaction with men.
    
    “Keeping me outside waiting. Silent. Unheard.”
    
    Yeah, they suck. OTOH what do you think about what it was said in Takku-forum, in central Europe squats are taken over by junkies which do not cae about any rules and original squatters are driven to trailers? So, in a way the screwed way of Satama is success by comparition.
    
    “And she was sticking with the idea that there was something mentally wrong with me”
    
    She is not the only one that says it. You admit it yourself. Just reading your blog there has been suicide-threats and drinking. My diagnosis is that you are either alcoholic or display behavior typical to alcoholics. Some/most people think communicating with you is hopeless. I wish my diagnosis is wrong, I stopped communicating with my father who was an alcoholic aggressor altogether when he never yielded in his opinions one inch.
    
    “Put a label and shut up. This way I could be a part of the fun crowd too. Get to hang out with Taru and the rest.”
    
    Yeah, isn’t it wonderful? Let’s just make it a public library. We go there and do our own stuff and don’t interact with each other at all, everyone walking on egg shells. No wonder it has been called “the hippopotamus in Kyläsaari” in a discussion forum.
    
    ” it’s not just one person building a community. ”
    
    I agree. It is the tactics you have chosen. The 19 feminists had to sacrifice you and your type of feminism -not the fun way -in order to have working relations with the males in in the house. They wanted to say, no, we are not going to push you guys over the edge, we are giving you chance to reform.
    The sexists, OTOH could’ve seen it as their victory. Your provocation tightened the lines of the sexists.
    
    “People – real human beings with feelings – are not important in the house. Justice is not important in the house. Honesty and truth is not important in the house. It’s all about status and “not hurting or talking shit about our friends”.”
    
    This is where I agree with you.
    
    “Petra told me”
    
    OK, I no longer comment on what Petra has said, because you say I am trying to explain away her racism and other politically incorrect nasties.
    
    >Cause it’s cold standing there.
    
    I did it without heroin.
    
    “It seems like you all the time pretend that you have some neutral role in this. Which is far from true. You are not neutral Stacy.”
    
    Oh, yes I am!
    
    “She had the power to convince me that everybody else in the social network we were in hated me. ”
    
    Including me? I don’t think you are hated, it is more like you are feared.
    
    “You, Stacy, were using the same tactic. Saying that Pähkinä is just a controlled pet, and that other persons with whom I have political affinity with are just as socially messed up and “incapable” as I am. That you and Petra are my only “real friends”. I think that’s a really manipulative thing to say.”
    
    It was not said for that purpose.
    
    “Did Dani ask you to say that I’ve raped her? ”
    
    No, I dealt with this in another message.
    
    “And about Pähkinä, that I said I would pass this conversation on to her. (and you were saying that there’s no sense in “involving” more people) ”
    
    Do as you wish.
    
    “She makes her own decision if she feels like saying something or not. You are completely fucked up when you are calling her controlled and a pet of mine. This is not me you are “taking a dump on” this is you talking shit about Pähkinä. And I thought she should know.”
    
    OK, I am open to being proven wrong.
    
    Pähkinä is not a pet. You are totally belittling her by saying something like that.
    
    “the social centre crowd [that you now seem to be defending..?]”
    
    I am trying to understand reasons for them acting like they have acted. This is the same as with you and Dani. Petra calls this a game where you are a bad player and I agree. You have stirred the uneasy coexistence of genders in the Social Center and the whole topic has become a taboo subject.
Pre Kaarina, on November 10, 2009 at 2:46 pm said:

“Fox News.. Infamous for twisted propaganda and infotainment.”

Sure, but even if you go by that two per cent, still there are women that file reports on rapes that never happened.

“Hasn’t it been proven beyond any doubt to you by now, that people DO NOT listen to me. DO NOT trust what I say. CONSTANTLY ask for “proof”, and even when it’s presented clearly, people STILL DON’T BELIEVE what I say, but instead choose to think there’s something wrong with the way i’m saying things (so be it screaming, whispering, singing or writing) ?!”

Welcome to the real world, that’s how it goes. Now, are you any better. People hate most the truth about themselves.
I will stick to you delivering your message the wrong way. The people you have tried to communicate with haven’t actually been bright, either.
“Are you seriously making excuses on biological grounds? That a person is not accountable for their actions because of sex? ”

No, but on strategical grounds. You are using the ultimate Hitler-card. If you blame a male person for sexism, there is no way for him to defend himself. If you make the case public, as with Dani, there is no chance for him to progress either. He will always have the criminal record of being sexist in 2009.
But what if the accusations are false, just like a certain percentage of alleged rapes are false? Remember that if you are seen as a criminal, you tend to ecome one. People live up to their expectations.

Therefore you should take a gentler approach that enables the one you charge with sexism to back down, apologize and change his behavior.

“Just that you don’t necessarily have to jump on a band wagon saying that i’m a rapist ”

Dani said he did not use the word “rape” and said: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”
OK, I accept. I think we are in agreement, you are guilty of sexual harassment, but no real rape, if that conforts you.

“I should shut up about what i’ve experienced.”

Because your tactic is counterproductive.

“At first you say that I’m privileged cause “everybody” believes me. And then you totally believe Dani, and not me. ”

I believe in both of you, but not because of your status, I only trust my intuition. For me the situation is clear, Dani is guilty of sexism, he has clearly gone overboard and has been gravely inconsiderate.
You have this alcoholic-type aggression, you sh*t on Dani’s feelings, push him, stalk him, use abusive language and generally drive him to madness. And it is not going to end and he has nothing else to do than to sit down and listen, because retaliating against your lousy problem-solving would be seen as a sexist act, male violence, whatever.
For other males it seems that you are emasculating him and of course they will help their brother-in-arms. Therefore you have got this front of really wicked sexist males such as Pekko Rinkinen along with 19 feminists against you. I am sure you will inspire Pekko a long time. Actually I had an eerie thought: you two are in a grotesque way similar.

“Somehow I see Dani as the one being privileged here. ”

How can he defend himself?

“From this I once again see the misogynistic “the woman is the root of all evil” thinking.”

What makes you think it is misogynistic? Isn’t being the root of all evil powerful?

“If I shut my mouth, there would be no wife-beating”

Let’s stop here. Is there any kind of wife-beating that you accept? What kind of defense a male can have?

“It’s the TALKING about the experiences of abuse that lead to the abuse.”

It is the way you talk. In a more overt feudal times than we live now there was chivalry. Chivalry with its all ridiculous customs basically prevented men from killing each other. They developed into rules of engagement. I think even in these days men tend towards fairness, because even the biggest badass doesn’t want to go to fights all the time.
Your behavior is not fair, you are kicking a person that is lying on the ground and bleeding. You are charging males into dead-end streets and emasculating them. This is brutal. And you escape it because you are respected cissexual female. With everyone else, your teeth would be ripped off.
These people do you a favor sitting on the same table with you and having a conversation, but they have grown weary.
“So if I meet with you and Petra again, after all the verbal abuse I’ve faced from you two now. “good hard fuck” “rapist”. Does this mean that I will be misogynistic towards you? Fuck you and rape you?”

I am sorry, I missed the point here.
“Could you explain which Karla you are talking about, and how this person have anything to do with people in the social centre (and the finnish scene in general) being exclusionary?”

Kylmäkoski. And she was recently banned from the social center and people spread false rumors about her that have reached Western Europe, even.

“HERE I AGREE WITH YOU! And I still think it’s massively insulting that you are protective of Petra and make shitty excuses about the fucked up comment she made about me wanting a “hard fuck” (No! – I want HUGS and CARE and UNDERSTANDING, and Real SOCIAL CHANGE. Not just Slogans)”

OK, I am sorry about my excuses for Petra. But you know that Petra is a bad typist and will not come here to defend what she has said.

“She speaks goddamn perfect english.”

She also believes she was born 160 years ago and participated in the american Civil War.

“Stacy, you are lying, and making excuses.”

I am making excuses for Petra, but I am not lying.

Reply
sosiaalikeskus, on November 10, 2009 at 4:06 pm said:

Hello Stacy, I’m glad that I will have a break. Going to sweden. Trying out meditation. Hopefully it will give me some sort of perspective on what I wish and want for in this life.

I feel very down. Cause there seems to be no way of escaping social relations.

I broke down, and cried, again when I read your latest victim-blaming statements.

Stacy wrote: ((((
Therefore you should take a gentler approach that enables the one you charge with sexism to back down, apologize and change his behavior. )))))

Tell Dani what to do instead of how I should respond in the “right” and correct way to manipulation and abuse.

Stacy wrote: ((((
Dani said he did not use the word “rape” and said: “we didnt have intercourse… she really would have had to use physical force for that… but it stopped at emotional coercion and physical “attempts”…”
OK, I accept. I think we are in agreement, you are guilty of sexual harassment, but no real rape, if that conforts you. ))))

I am not in agreement with you. I am talking about ONE TIME when I tried to kiss Dani and I had a nasty attitude about it, and she didn’t want to. The other thing Dani is talking about was that I asked to be comforted by her when I was crying in front of her. This was related to all the previous abuse I had faced in Budapest.

I DID NOT TRY TO HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH DANI !! This is a lie. What happened was the attempt to kiss (which was fucked up and wrong. And I can repeat saying that till the day I die, but it will still be interpreted as me not owning that. BECAUSE NOBODY CAN HEAR WHAT I*M REALLY SAYING.)

There was the coercion in KISSING. There was me asking for comfort and saying “even if it is out of pity, I would like to be hugged”.

THEN THERE was us two sleeping close together. There was the two of us holding one another. There was no coercion or sexual shit in that. And Dani is talking with you about it in a way that makes you think that I’ve raped her. And then you write about it to me. Saying that I should stop stalking the guy with my minor problems. That I don’t talk about things in the right way.

Here I DISAGREE with you.

Stacy quoted and wrote: (((((
“I should shut up about what i’ve experienced.”

Because your tactic is counterproductive. ))))

Yes. Me crying and feeling anger and feeling abused when I read what you’re writing or crying about being abused by a guy for a long time and not being able to talk about it in a proper way but instead it being seen [by you. And probably the mainstream.] as me waving cards around in this game where you can win “victim” status and get to pin the bully with a pig-tail. (I don’t play that game. I want peace and justice. And I want to be able to talk about really manipulative abusive behaviors that men have in relation to women in order to avoid ACCOUNTABILITY. It’s so fucked up that Dani doesn’t get to talk about this abuse. Or has to change it. It’s so fucked up that I’m told to change, cause otherwise Dani “can’t change”. It’s so fucked up that this guy who played me all over the place, is still getting to set the rules for what I should and shouldn’t do.)

It’s seriously fucked up that she’s indicating sexualized abuse towards her when she exposed me to the regular “runkkari” flasher jerk-off behavior in relation to me. The same guy who said that she wouldn’t want to be in my company at social centre satama cause that would DEPRIVE her of her opportunities there. (how victim-blaming is that? Saying that the bullies won’t like me if I go in company with you..)

Stacy wrote: ((((
And it is not going to end and he has nothing else to do than to sit down and listen, because retaliating against your lousy problem-solving would be seen as a sexist act, male violence, whatever. ))))

By who? The guy is retaliating all the time. Writing statements to you about me basically raping her. (which is not true) And then you going on endlessly about what a bad person I am and how privileged I am and how I have all the cards, while Dani just sits there.. (RIGHT. This guy is in a network of people. Who listen to Dani. Who see me as a crazy fucked up person who is just out to hurt this “good guy”)

I have several quotes where it’s stated that i’m a bad meany and Dani is a good innocent victim in this. And I guess I would include the above statement in that. DANI IS RETALIATING ALL THE TIME, within the network.

Stacy quoted and wrote: (((((
“From this I once again see the misogynistic “the woman is the root of all evil” thinking.”

What makes you think it is misogynistic? Isn’t being the root of all evil powerful? ))))

Not when everything you say and do is used against you. “skirt was too short” “she’s had sex before” “they had sex before” “she was drunk”. Or in my case: “she talked” and “she talked in way I didn’t like”. And with that justifying any abuse that comes after that.

Stacy quoted and wrote: (((((
“It’s the TALKING about the experiences of abuse that lead to the abuse.”

It is the way you talk. In a more overt feudal times than we live now there was chivalry. Chivalry with its all ridiculous customs basically prevented men from killing each other. They developed into rules of engagement. I think even in these days men tend towards fairness, because even the biggest badass doesn’t want to go to fights all the time.
Your behavior is not fair, you are kicking a person that is lying on the ground and bleeding. You are charging males into dead-end streets and emasculating them. This is brutal. And you escape it because you are respected cissexual female. With everyone else, your teeth would be ripped off.
These people do you a favor sitting on the same table with you and having a conversation, but they have grown weary. ))))

I’m dreadfully weary too. I’ve done the favor of repeatedly ask for an opportunity to sit down as an equal at the table and have my say. But after it gets denied. I start a blog. And after it gets denied with Dani. I wrote some blog posts. She has all the opportunity in the world to respond. But she doesn’t.

And her not doing that. You say: Is my fault. Because it’s always my fault. And there is not such thing as me bleeding or lying on the ground. Even in this. When I’m upset. Once again I get to hear from people to just disengage. That your abuse Stacy is something that I can just avoid. That if I choose to fight back and defend myself. Then it’s seen as me abusing myself. Not you doing it. But i’m being blamed for the abusive things that you do. In the same way as you do now with Dani and apparently with the whole social centre crowd.

Stacy wrote: ((((
“So if I meet with you and Petra again, after all the verbal abuse I’ve faced from you two now. “good hard fuck” “rapist”. Does this mean that I will be misogynistic towards you? Fuck you and rape you?”

I am sorry, I missed the point here. ))))

I was referring to your blaming attitude. You were saying that if I talk about abuse (in the “wrong” way) that this leads men to get angry and this makes them strangle, and do other misogynistic acts. That me being “verbally obscene” makes them commit horrendous acts.

So I figured that this would go both ways then. Cause I feel totally mangled by your way of expressing yourself. Making assumptions about my sexuality. Making assumptions about people I know, and call friends. Making assumptions about me raping a man. Stalking her. Saying that you think I throw tantrums and that i’m horribly dominant and privileged. So when you and Petra verbally abuse me. Then instead of responding to it. Should I then sit by myself. And be unwomanly about it. Not cry. But turn the aggression outwords and then do the same thing that you say that men do whenever I speak? [I missed your point to. But I figured it had something to do with “Milla is bad” and “Other people can’t help themselves”. And Fuck confronting Dani on her abusive behaviors. Let her continue doing whatever shit she’s been doing. Because Milla is talking about it in the ‘wrong’ way.]

Stacy wrote: (((
I am making excuses for Petra, but I am not lying. )))

You wrote that I should stop stalking Dani since I’ve raped her.

This is a clear lie.
Stacy you ARE a liar. when you write something like that.

Reply
- Pre Kaarina, on November 10, 2009 at 8:31 pm said:
  
  “I’m glad that I will have a break. Going to sweden. Trying out meditation. Hopefully it will give me some sort of perspective on what I wish and want for in this life.”
  
  I hope so as well. Give a thought of what I have said.
  
  “I read your latest victim-blaming statements.”
  
  Who is the victim here? Are you the only victim? Have you never blamed the victim?
  
  “Tell Dani what to do instead of how I should respond in the “right” and correct way to manipulation and abuse.”
  
  Now I am talking with you. I know you better.
  
  “There was the coercion in KISSING.”
  
  OK, accepted. Dani has confirmed that. There was still coercion nonetheless. How come you think you are the only victim? How come you are blaming me for blaming the victim when you are doing the same?
  
  “Yes. Me crying and feeling anger and feeling abused when I read what you’re writing or crying about being abused by a guy for a long time and not being able to talk about it in a proper way but instead it being seen [by you. And probably the mainstream.] as me waving cards around in this game where you can win “victim” status and get to pin the bully with a pig-tail.”
  
  Why not talk about it anonymously in some appropriate forum? It would not paint Dani more guilty than he is. Now you are the the prosecutor, witness, judge and executioner.
  
  “It’s so fucked up that Dani doesn’t get to talk about this abuse. Or has to change it. ”
  
  It is his problem, not yours.
  
  “It’s so fucked up that I’m told to change”
  
  How about using a different tactic?
  I have had the male-bodied “privilege” of being beaten into pulp and left lying bleeding when I chose a social tactic that did not work. Deep down in my brain, I want to resolve everything without brawls, you don’t. You can be emotial and seek rightfully help for the abuse you have suffered, but do it in a different arena than the one where you challenge Dani. Go to Sweden, if you want, and find your strength there, put pieces together, and come here and resolve the conflicts.
  
  “It’s seriously fucked up that she’s indicating sexualized abuse towards her when she exposed me to the regular “runkkari” flasher jerk-off behavior in relation to me. ”
  
  He has the right to feel abused no matter what he has done himself as you have the right to feel abused no matter you’ve done to him. You have this “holier than thou” -attitude that entitles you to condemn. In the same time you admit your wrongdoings, but I really start to think it is lip service.
  
  “By who? The guy is retaliating all the time. Writing statements to you about me basically raping her. (which is not true) And then you going on endlessly about what a bad person I am and how privileged I am and how I have all the cards, while Dani just sits there..”
  
  Yes, all he can do is to sit and wish that I do a good job for him, but I am trying to be impartial.
  
  “DANI IS RETALIATING ALL THE TIME, within the network.”
  
  What makes you think he is behind this? What if dani’s network is full of ingelligent individuals that can think on their own?
  
  ” “skirt was too short” “she’s had sex before” “they had sex before” “she was drunk”. Or in my case: “she talked” and “she talked in way I didn’t like”. And with that justifying any abuse that comes after that.”
  
  No, it doesn’t follow. A mere item of clothing cannot serve as a justification for rape. Your part in this conflict is much greater than a piece of cloth and Dani’s part is somewhat smaller than a rape. Where do you draw the line of starting to take responsibility?
  What if a wife beats her husband and when he slaps back the wife calls her husband a wife-beater? I mean where do you draw the line, as an antisexist?
  Are you also willing to enter street brawls? If you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.
  
  “And her not doing that. You say: Is my fault. Because it’s always my fault. ”
  
  No, only you can change yourself.
  
  “And there is not such thing as me bleeding or lying on the ground. Even in this. When I’m upset. Once again I get to hear from people to just disengage. That your abuse Stacy is something that I can just avoid. That if I choose to fight back and defend myself. Then it’s seen as me abusing myself. Not you doing it. But i’m being blamed for the abusive things that you do. In the same way as you do now with Dani and apparently with the whole social centre crowd.”
  
  The idea of this escaped me.
  “I was referring to your blaming attitude. You were saying that if I talk about abuse (in the “wrong” way) that this leads men to get angry and this makes them strangle, and do other misogynistic acts. That me being “verbally obscene” makes them commit horrendous acts.”
  
  You are free to do it in an arena where you can be anonymous. You are trying to deal with two things at once and it isn’t working: your relationship with Dani and your personal feelings of having been abused.
  
  “Making assumptions about my sexuality. Making assumptions about people I know, and call friends. Making assumptions about me raping a man. Stalking her. Saying that you think I throw tantrums and that i’m horribly dominant and privileged. ”
  
  Making assumptions to find out what the truth is.
  
  “This is a clear lie.
  Stacy you ARE a liar. when you write something like that.”
  
  No, I am not. I made a mistake in interpreting Dani’s message. You corrected it and I accepted your correction. If I go around telling any longer that you are a rapist, then and only then I will be a liar.
  You are an abuser and this is about you, not me.
  
  Reply
sosiaalikeskus, on November 10, 2009 at 4:36 pm said:

by Milla

Stacy wrote: (((
I agree. It is the tactics you have chosen. The 19 feminists had to sacrifice you and your type of feminism -not the fun way -in order to have working relations with the males in in the house. They wanted to say, no, we are not going to push you guys over the edge, we are giving you chance to reform.
The sexists, OTOH could’ve seen it as their victory. Your provocation tightened the lines of the sexists. )))

Silence is golden. This is the way. Do not complain and conform. [the tactics or let’s just say: praxis of the social centre.]

In a school class it could be: “Don’t wear glasses” “If you do, it’s at your own risk”. In the social centre it would be: “Speak openly about feminist issues and REALLY try to change something – AT YOUR OWN RISK.”

Me talking. Didn’t tighten shit. It was tight already before I got there.

Stacy wrote: ((((
“It seems like you all the time pretend that you have some neutral role in this. Which is far from true. You are not neutral Stacy.”

Oh, yes I am! ))))

In what way are you neutral in this world in your interaction with others?

Stacy wrote: ((((
I am trying to understand reasons for them acting like they have acted. This is the same as with you and Dani. Petra calls this a game where you are a bad player and I agree. You have stirred the uneasy coexistence of genders in the Social Center and the whole topic has become a taboo subject. ))))

It didn’t “become” taboo. It WAS taboo already before I got there.

Stop your idiotic blaming of abusive behavior on the people exposed to it, once again your thinking goes in the loop: Person talks of power relations – Person gets suppressed by the power relations – Person must be responsible for the power relations existing in the first place! (totally weird conclusion)

Reply
sosiaalikeskus, on November 11, 2009 at 9:07 am said:

by Milla

Stacy wrote, about Dani not dealing wtih her shit, not taking accountability: ((((
Yes, that is a natural reaction to the tactic you have chosen, but you refuse to see it. Why are you choosing a tactic that leads to failure?

“excusing petra for saying that i’m just longing for that “good hard fuck”.”

Petra explained that you wanted Dani sexually, but Dani didn’t want you and this makes you bitter and rejected. )))))

Dani wanted me sexually. But only in a submissive role. I rejected that. I wanted equality. Dani rejected equality.

What I’ve been trying to talk about amongst other things is that Dani objectified me and put me in different sexual positions, a form of domination (going up against my behind when i’m doing astanga, pressing her crotch against me. or standing naked in front of me, just staring at me, masturbating at the same time – these are a FEW examples of unwanted forms of expressions of “sexuality”).

And yet. Yes. I wanted Dani – as a whole human being. Real connection. But i refused domination. And i fought for equality. And this is the thing being rejected. My personhood is being rejected over and over again.

You say that my struggle for equality gave a “natural” LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE YOU STALKING RAPIST. as a response. you say that i don’t own my shit.

i say

1. i have a serious problem with drinking and aggression coming out when drunk. and i need to fix that. not fixing that is a lack of respect for others. (this came out in relation to dani in april and continued that way. destructive for sure. dani’s own drinking, mental illness, sexism, and sexualized abuse and psychological games and abuse was a part of our connection right from the beginning. and has continued throughout.)

2A. i went over Dani’s boundaries sexually, physically ONCE.
2B. Dani went over my boundaries sexually, physically REPEATEDLY.

3. you have a problem in your own relation with petra. you spending your days in front of the computer. ignoring her (ignoring is a form of dominance) and Dani said that you “treat Petra like a child” as in: a belittling way.

4. petra has a problem with substance abuse. and verbal abuse. she is also emotionally dependent of you.

5. you should go to couple therapy. or figure out some other way to work on your relation, instead of you taking all the aggression in that relation and channel it on other things.

6. you could love one another instead of you just silently waiting for Petra to die. (you’ve said yourself that you kind of just suffer through that relation.)

7. i have never been drunk in relation to you. so you talking about me as an abusive drunk in relation to you – is for me clear that you are projecting the feelings you had about your father. i am not that authority figure in your life. the substance abuse you have close in your life right now is in relation to Petra. Not me. [I repeat: I have been drunk and abusive towards Dani. And yes. This is wrong. And it is also wrong to cover up the repeated misogynistic patterns that Dani has in intimate relations and say that Dani’a response to anything I do is “natural” while i am egotistic and displaying wrong “tactics”.]

8. you relate to Dani in this conflict, because of the experiences that you had with your father. i am not your father. and Dani is not you.

9. Dani is a person using psychological games, doing real human beings around her harm. and she’s unwilling to own it and do something about it.

10. i have a right to confront her.

11. i have a right to confront you Stacy. you are verbally abusive. and are trying to play fucked up controlling games on me. and i don’t like it.

12. you don’t own your own shit. you take a dump on people and then pretend that it’s their own fault. this is how i feel in relation to you in this discussion.

13. i appreciate you doing the right thing in relation to the social centre. you showed me a solidarity in that struggle that few did. Dani said she wanted. Dani said she would. But never did. Instead she ended up being abusive and damaging to me.

14. so thank you very much for opening up your life to me. i felt taken care of. it felt warm and welcoming. i felt accepted.

15. and now instead of Fuck Off. I guess i will use your words: You are using the wrong “tactics” on me. and i preserve the same “right” as you have granted Dani. let’s see if it works:

Leave Me Alone. [start working on your own issues instead of projecting it all over me. i repeat: I am not your father. Dani is not you.]

Reply
- sosiaalikeskus, on November 11, 2009 at 9:37 am said:
  
  by Milla
  
  adding the sms i sent to Dani last night:
  
  “Hello Dani. Please publish this stalking: When will ‘accountability’ be a part of your vocabulary and ‘feminist’ anti-sexist practice? /Milla”
  
  i expect this to be ignored.
  
  i asked her once when i tried to confront her on abusive behavior if she calls herself anarchist? feminist? and she defensively aggressively was saying that she doesn’t “label” herself. this way avoiding to answer the questions on abuse.
  
  the day after i met with a woman, and when we talked about Dani, it became clear that Dani had presented herselt as a “feminist” to her. (no problem labeling herself when she can get some advantage out of it..)
  
  this “feminist” who twists and distorts reality to a degree that asking (yes, pitifully begging) for a hug when i was crying. and at another occasion trying to kiss (yes. in a fucked up way. totally going over her boundaries) turns into something that others easily can interpret as “rape”.
  
  a “feminist” who lies about abusive behavior (i was not prepared when entering the relation with her, and i myself told her that i go psychotic when drinking, that i go aggressive. she knew more about me than i did about her, when entering that relation.)
  
  of course –> hearing. is not the same as —> living through it. is not the same as —> feeling through it. reacting to it. engaging with it.
  
  that’s why i’m fucking terrified in knowing that Dani continues doing to others what she did to me.
  
  and i hate her hypocrisy.
  
  and i try to do something about my own.
  
  and i try to find spaces where i can heal and stop the hurt.
  
  as one woman i was talking with said. carry the community in my heart. self-love. self-respect. a community of one.
  
  Reply
Pre Kaarina, on November 24, 2009 at 5:29 am said:

I think you are beating around the bush here and that is usually a sign of being guilty or being dumb.

We have two alternatives here, either a random male activist is guilty of sexism or he is innocent.

If he is innocent and your accusations are false, how can he defend himself without looking like a male chauvinist? Only by his network of females, because he has no say about issues pertaining feminism.

You have a position of authority and superiority here. It is up to you to use it in responsible manner. Now you deny my example of Fox news. Are you taking the impossible position of women NEVER making unfounded accusations against males (about rape)?

Most of the people do not know the real side of the issues. It might have seen that you’ve squeezed a forced confession.

I, however, believe that his confession is genuine and his guilt is an established fact. The real question is: what should you be doing with it.
I would let him go, as he demands.

Like Sun Tzu and Art of Warfare, it is foolish to push an enemy to the corner. Letting the enemy make a dignified retreat is better. He has a debt of gratitude, which means more than spoiing his reputation in some web site which looks like a scandal newspaper.

However, your case with the squatting scene is valid. I have a confirmation about this from Dani and Karla. You have played foolishly. Even though you have been sober around me, the behavior of an alcoholic is apparent with you: You see little fault in what you are doing. You have pissed people off and they are rightfully irate: Antti, Yakup, Riikka Kaihovaara and others. That muddies the fact that you are right about the social center. You can be dismissed as a mentally unstable person, an alcoholic, whatever. You yourself give reasons for your own mistreatment and these people are nasty enough for goinfg for it.

The question is, what do you want from me. I will not be your submissive ass-kisser. Neither do I please Dani or the squatting scene. With me pity-party does not work, I do not buy into “Milla the eternal victim”, Milla the suicidal alcoholic who claims to have psychological disturbances that we all should understand. Milla the female who can push any male into corner and claim whatever she wants and act hurt when her accusations are not taken as the ultimate Truth. You say Dani is manipulative. Perhaps he is, but you are, too.

Reply
Male privilege, Intimate Violence, Accountability « Another scene is possible, on November 24, 2009 at 12:41 pm said:

[…] https://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/fuck-off-not-taking-this-shit-anymore/#comments […]

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What? (talking with a guy with a bad habit of dominating women) « Another scene is possible, on March 31, 2010 at 4:29 pm said:

[…] N) 3: How do you relate to having made statements like this, in relation to me for several months wanting to talk about what I lived and experienced in relation to you: […]

Reply
Conflicted (Daniel / Milla) « Another scene is possible, on July 30, 2011 at 12:33 am said:

[…] Today I woke up to yet another empty day in my pampered existence as an unemployed, with government benefits. Something that Daniel holds against me, and has said, that my unawareness of my privileges has been the reason for breaking off contact with me. That and fits of rage. Angry words. Possibly drunkenness as well. Daniel has also made pretty clear hints that I’ve gone over her borders sexually – the person that was told this, told me that I had raped Daniel. […]

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