Feminists in Budapest? – Magyar

by Cunt Incognita (Pina)

A majority of male figures. And no Black faces. Hmm...

Before going to Budapest, I wrote an email to a person – (h) – about going there – asking for nice people to meet with. She’s an intimate and works with (d) so it was a natural thing to ask for contacts – even though I had never met with her face to face – in the same way she herself had gotten in contact with me through this blog, and also chatted with me about some of her personal experiences within the scene.

I had heard from (d) that this woman also had been facing unfair exclusion from one project. That there had been meetings where others didn’t show up when she was there, and finally she was told that this was the case, and she was asked to step out of the project. A clear case of bullying.

In my initital correspondance with her, these ideas were lingering in my mind, and I thought there was some trauma left in her, a real fear of people within the scene, and that this came out in the projections on me – when she told me not to come to the city.

Later I’ve thought that she might have some jealousy issue since I’ve also been intimate with (d) and she on repeated occassions said that she didn’t give contacts to me, because it was “up to (d) to decide about that”. And at the same time she’s saying that she doesn’t “feel seen like a person” by me, that she’s just someone in relation to something (a companion of (d)?, a part of the Budapest scene?, owner of a flat – living with (mx) and (v)?, a woman who contacted me over the blog about sexual abuse? an individual making up society and humanity?).

In hindsight I got to understand that this is one of the power figures within the scene. A person with influence, contacts, and disturbing dominant behavior.

A person who recently started talking about dealing with abusive behavior in her relation with (d), and at the same time is blind to her own abusive behavior in relation to me, a sister, a radical feminist within the European scene.

I’m tired of miscommunication, and the frustration of having to be alone in relation to the madness of sexist logic. (mx) saying that I’m a ‘rapist’. (h) sees me as someone who will ‘split the process’ and constantly ‘misunderstand’ things. A threat to the community. As (v) said – ‘The enemy of freedom’.

Dealing with power relations and hierarchies and oppressive behavior on an interpersonal level is something that is needed if we truly want community and a functioning effective (creative!) atmosphere to live the change we want to see. Make our visions and dreams as real as the oppressive patterns that lead us to mental illness, substance abuse, searching for sex instead of gentle comforting strokes, using people around us as tools to manipulate in order to get what we think we want and need, leading to: alienation, distrust, fear – disconnection.

Yesterday. When having a frustrating talk with (d) of how shit the communication is all over the place. When she was talking of her relation with (h). It hurt somehow, the – her working on a relation with someone who so clearly has a non-cooperative hostile attitude towards me. And me at the same time being in strong need of support and comfort in dealing with the massive oppressive miscommunication going on with (h) and me.

After pressure – I had told (h) that only brain cancer would be an acceptable excuse to escape the subject – she had finally agreed on meeting up for half an hour [sic!] to discuss her part in the attempt to exclude me from the Budapest scene.

The clear dominance there in her writings. Well. I was just getting more and more frustrated – feeling insane because of figuring out how to communicate what I want in a way that would be comprehensible to (h). So I contacted both (d) and (h) and said that I would talk with (d) first to get some feedback in order for me to figure out what I could possibly do to get the Discussion culture & Decision making processes discussed when back in Budapest.

(d) has been too tangled up in her own messed up situation, with intimate relations and conflicts that she hasn’t been able or willing to give the support I would need in this matter. She’s been sticking her head in the sand – or rather – drowning it in a can of beer. Me wanting to give her support, but at the same time being left alone with the huge load of Getting Sexism Discussed, leading to several hours of chatting with a person – (d) – “So when could we talk about this? Do you think you will be sober tomorrow?” And finally when given the chance to speak about it, me just giving up some of  the facilitation-communication and just crying and showing my finger, and in general being sarcastic, when trying to figure out what (d’s) perspective on this conflict has been. Cause we didn’t talk about it properly. So of course it just builds up in the end, the non-talking causes there to be too much to talk about and too little sensitivity, when there’s too little time taken for it.

When (d) was talking about dealing with abuse in the relation to (h), and I asked her if (h) sees herself as abusive in relation to me. The answer was ‘no’.

One supportive comment that came out of the chat was this:

[3/13/2009 11:54:39 PM] (me) : would you recognize her as abusive in relation to me?
[3/13/2009 11:56:08 PM] (d) : i guess so
[3/13/2009 11:56:51 PM] (d) : cause she defends the non-existing community against non-threats

And here’s the 10 letter email exchange I had with (h) before coming to Budapest. Subject line: ‘Feminists in Budpest?’

Watch out for some real nasty sexism.

FROM ME # 1

hello,

i know you stated on the XYZ list that you don’t trust me, so i guess
it’s completely up to you how you relate to my request (in other
words: don’t feel bad if you just drop this)

the request:
– could you help me get in contact with some feminists / other nice
people in budapest asap?
– i saw on your blog that you know (m), i met her in greece, so maybe
you could put me in contact with her?

background:
i decided to stop going crazy over the social centre conflict here in
helsinki and go to hungary for a short while. because of bureaucracy,
money, and other stuff a good time to leave would be around jan26th,
and it would take me some 3 days maybe getting there hitch-hiking.

i asked (d) already. but she’s too slow. and probably in need of a
break from the weird atmosphere in helsinki + me.

so, i would really appreciate if you could hook me up. (pass my email
on, or pass someone’s email / other contact info [skype, msn etc] to
me)

otherwise: i liked the post on property you had on your blog. i just
decided to give up the humongous computer i have + books + clothes i
never ever wash / use. i realized these things were the only reason
for me to find a permanent place to stay. so now i can go nomadic and
homeless again (mostly cause i feel super anxiety about living with
other people. it never works out… probably has a lot to do with my
own insecurities. and the usual bad communication, that can be found
almost everywhere.)

take care,
❤ (me)

FROM (H) # 2

take me as a person like a child in a middle of a family divorce. has not many chance do deal with the conflict but try to stand it and wait until it’s over.

(d) mentioned your plan to visit budapest some time ago, and i already told him that time that it’s not really a good idea. I don’t want to deal with this shit, I don’t want to feed anyone with information, with any forms of mediation. So I decided that I’m not gonna mediate between anyone involved in and around splits. they will do it themselves or don’t but don’t put this shit on me – i’m trying not to put my own shit on others who are not at all involved and cannot really help. I mean if I want to know something and if I want to tell something do it directly.

I don’t say this because I think you want to tell or ask something but you don’t do it directly or whatever. But answering any useful info to you would mean that I would feed the contact and both the activist/anarchist scene would tell me – how can you do things before discussing it with us etc, i mean serious things etc.? and both you would be in a position that can split the “process” here. (i hate this expression just a bit less then the term “project”)

so i cannot tell you anything else except asking back: why do you want to come HERE? why not somewhere else? why now?

I think it’s not really a good idea, and a really bad timing. maybe you could visit our community flat later in the spring or the summer, but for sure not now, because there are people living here who think you are paranoid and accusing people because you don’t trust anyone. anyways, i’m 1000% sure that the local community will have a consensus (in fact it already has) that you cannot come to this flat in jan-february, that’s for sure and nobody talked about afterwards, but basically this is sure, and probably it will be true for the infoshop and freeshop too. (I’m honest with you and it’s maybe a mistake and i still feed the conflict with it so i maybe just should ignore your email totally… i don’t know exactly. but this conflict is too much on me and i find it too ugly and stressing and have nothing to do with it also so it’s kind of ridiculous… it makes me wanting to quit the family and join individualist capitalism cause that’s easier)

I also don’t trust people, especially when i have no fuckin’ reason for it, but the opposite, so for me it’s not really a problem, but I think you will have lot of troubles getting to know the small scene here – it’s really fucking small, so you will be directly or very fast banned and there will be gossips and everything, I don’t think you want to experience but exactly the opposite: since you know about the situation here – and don’t act like you don’t know what the hell i’m talking about because we both know anyways – well i’m thinking about whether you want to come here to re-live being banned and then have something to complain about?

have you been to the baltics, lithuania, latvia (estonia I guess yes), poland? slovakia, czech republic austria? they are nice places, some of them have good local scene – especially poznan in poland, wow! so if you plan to hitchhike, why don’t you stop and see other places?

i don’t understand why you want to come here and I can only tell you it’s not a good idea and don’t do it, if you ask me. or take in consideration that you won’t be welcome and even (d) cannot help in this, i think.

about contacts don’t ask me. and (m) lives in berlin.

Wir sind jung und wir machen uns
Sorgen über unsere Chancen
auf dem Arbeitsmarkt und
unser berufliches Fortkommen

__

(h)

FROM (H) # 3

sorry i made a mistake, i’m too tired and have lots of exams coming, so studying all the time. anyway, maybe it’s a mistake to write back to you. please don’t write back lot of pages, i find it too complicated to talk to you, and through email and chat it’s somewhat less stressful, but as I imagine talking personally, I feel like if I would ask you about what is the time, or if you have a lighter, your answer would take an hour or more, because you ask back and seriously misunderstand many things, or not really willing to understand so it’s really tiring to talk to you, sometimes interesting but I always think ten times if I have anything to talk with you. I just let you know because maybe you can develop your communication skills. (I also have, i’m not perfect in it, for example sometimes I talk a lot and not listen enough, but it doesn’t mean that I cannot tell my personal criticism to anyone, neither that I should wait with it until I become perfect and then i can tell)

so don’t write back stupid questions, rather wait a few days and think them over, please. you would make my life easier…

On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:38 AM, (h) wrote:

take me as a person like a child in a middle of a family divorce. has not many chance do deal with the conflict but try to stand it and wait until it’s over.

(d) mentioned your plan to visit budapest some time ago, and i already told him that time that it’s not really a good idea. I don’t want to deal with this shit, I don’t want to feed anyone with information, with any forms of mediation. So I decided that I’m not gonna mediate between anyone involved in and around splits. they will do it themselves or don’t but don’t put this shit on me – i’m trying not to put my own shit on others who are not at all involved and cannot really help. I mean if I want to know something and if I want to tell something do it directly.

I don’t say this because I think you want to tell or ask something but you don’t do it directly or whatever. But answering any useful info to you would mean that I would feed the contact

conflict

FROM ME # 4

[i got your second message while i was writing this. i still choose to
pass on the thoughts and feelings that rose in me when i read your
response.]

hello,

wow. i don’t really know how to react or what to respond.

i don’t even know you, and already you are saying that i will split
some good process of some sort by coming to budapest? it scares me…
not to go to budapest, but more this somewhat – as i see it, from my
point of view, and knowing myself – this irrational fear of that
something really truly bad and awful would happen if i enter this
city, and meet people, and see what’s going on. for christ sake, i’m a
human being… shit. are you serious? people would start banning me?
are people really that freaked out and undemocratic in budapest? the
whole small scene? (i mean in helsinki it’s only the dominant ones
freaking out. there’s plenty of people around who can communicate and
self-reflect. is it really that bad in budapest? it just strikes me as
irrational somehow, that a person coming for a visit would be
ostracized in a few weeks… !)

YOU: so i cannot tell you anything else except asking back: why do you

want to come HERE? why not somewhere else? why now?

well, as always there are many reasons. but reason number one would be
to have an opportunity see what meeting (d) again would be like.
cause even though we were in a really weird situation, and both being
somewhat traumatized by life, i still felt a warmth i really
appreciate, and a willingness to work on communication that has been
refused to me for so long. there was a great act of solidarity in her
stressing off to helsinki to visit this broken down person in a
ridiculously insane conflict situation. even though we were both a bit
ditty and mad i felt there were great moments of sanity. and she’s
pushed me in some good directions with her advice and thoughts. so
going to hungary, when / if she’s also there would be fun.

i would go to hungary and budapest to have fun. maybe do some
workshops if there would be some interest in

— theatre of the oppressed
— feminist self defense
— methods of domination
— maybe: consensus and facilitation

get some idea of what the feminist situation is like (i’m sure there
would be some individuals refusing to go along in playing weird games,
and who would actually enjoy having a talk with me)

and yes. (about the thing you’re probably referring to as the
conflict) i guess trying to get to ask (mx) why the hell she would
kick someone off the XYZ list, and keep them off, without giving a
valid reason for it. and ignore the several objections that have been
sent to the list. and thereby turn the whole process into something
highly centralized and going against the hallmarks of pga. yes: i
would try to get that to happen. off course she can try to ban me from
the scene or whatever… or just stay the hell away and hide somewhere
instead of asking these simple questions from a living warm fleshy
feeling human being: me.

i really don’t know how to respond to your messages. i can only try to
be as open as possible.

maybe comfort you in some of your fears: i’m not interested in staying
in the same place where (mx) and (v) are at. i’m only interested
in meeting people, learning new things about myself and others, and
try my best to enjoy myself. (i need a break from finland and
helsinki)

and if you would be there in bp, i would be fine with meeting you as
well. to try to get a better understanding of what’s going on with you
and your understanding of situations and life.

there were a lot of questions in your mail, that i didn’t respond to.
there were also a lot of things i didn’t understand, that would only
lead to those pages of questions that you said you didn’t want.

but at least i feel i’ve gotten said what urgently immediately came to
mind when reading your response.

feel free to write me whenever. in whatever form. (i don’t understand
your frustration and fears, where they come from. but if you’re
interested in working on getting towards some understanding, then i’m
here for you.)

❤ (me)

“The only dream worth having is to dream that you will live while you
are alive, and die only when you are dead. To love, to be loved. To
never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the
unspeakable violence and vulgar disparity of the life around you. To
seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never
simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect
strength, never power. Above all to watch. To try and understand. To
never look away. And never, never to forget.”
– Arundhati Roy

FROM (H) # 5

1. thing because of your constant misunderstanding you are probably not the person I really want to work on my own misunderstanding.

2. i don’t really feel to have the patience to meet with you. not because i really don’t want, but because i have other things to do, and as i wrote you in my last email, it’s too complicated and tiring to communicate with you. and why i’m impatient, well, i’m sure it has a lot of reasons and that i have to work on it and i do.

3. if you want anything from (mx) or (v) talk to them and leave me out of your shit. (your: plural) i don’t want to be part of your stupid divorce and act like any mediator. it is good for nothing for noone.

4. my conclusion reading your email: talk to (d). i’m not gonna answer your question because he wasn’t fast enough with his answers. it’s his decision what he wants, when and how and whatever, so i’m not taking part of this either.
you have in fact all the contacts you need: you want to meet (d), you know his email. you want to ask something from (mx). you know his emailaddress too. you want to get to know the local feminist, (d) can help in it if he thinks its a good idea. you also know what you can expect.

(+1. undemocratic: hahahha i don’t give a shit about democracy that tries to sell out my votes and workforce)

FROM ME # 6

(+1. undemocratic: hahahha i don’t give a shit about democracy that
tries to sell out my votes and workforce)

i didn’t understand this at all.

but i understand that you’re not interested in meeting or giving
contacts. (and i never did ask anything about (v) or (mx). i
only mentioned them cause i thought that it was this you were
referring to when speaking about feeling like you’re in the middle of
a conflict, just by me contacting you.)

i feel a bit uncomfortable with your way of expressing yourself. i
just get the feeling that there’s a lot of projection going on, that i
really don’t understand, since i never met you. but i accept that this
is the way it is.

i sense a hostility that i really don’t understand, and that i really
don’t think i deserve.

and stay away (cause i want to feel comfortable too)

and that’s it,

(me)

FROM (H) # 7

and stay away (cause i want to feel comfortable too)

ok. np.
i just replied because you wrote to me so i thought you want to have an answer, and not answering anything helps nothing, even if it’s possible that answering neither will develop anyone.

have fun anyways

FROM ME # 8

just to clarify (cause i *do* want to work on communication)

i meant me staying away. not you.

i meant me staying away, cause you express clear frustration about
communicating with me, and i understand that you don’t want it.
and i sense some hostility that i don’t understand, and if you’re not
into talking about it. if you choose to put your life energy
elsewhere, i respect that,

and stay away.

that’s what i meant.

hopefully this was a bit clearer.

❤ me

FROM (H) # 9

ok, that’s fine too.

FROM ME # 10

ok (h),

like any living human being i’m capricious, and change my mind. i’m
not staying away.

your statements awoke my curiosity. and since they concern me, a real
living person (with feelings hopes dreams hurts and all the other
stuff we humans are), since i’m all this, i feel that it makes sense
to ask questions.

YOU: I don’t think you want to experience but exactly the opposite:

since you know about the situation here – and don’t act like you don’t
know what the hell i’m talking about because we both know anyways –
well i’m thinking about whether you want to come here to re-live being
banned and then have something to complain about?

ME: i really *don’t* know what the situation is like there. so i don’t
think it’s fair of you to assume that i do. i found the first message
you sent shocking since it was so hard core telling me that “the
scene” would ban me and thinks i’m “paranoid” etc. and at the same
time you’re talking of bad timing and that i could come back later in
spring… so, “the scene” will have changed it’s mind till spring? it
really doesn’t make any sense to me. (?? who is the scene in that
case? maybe i could speak to the scene in person?)

i know nastiness and hardcore sexist attitudes. this is nothing new to
me. it’s not new that there’s no climate for discussing things. and
that people avoid tough emotional subjects (instead of pulling the
rotten tooth out, we walk around with a constant tooth ache, not
touching the subject). this is nothing new. but that you would
encourage me not to come during a specific time (but that i would be
welcome later?) and then tell me i shouldn’t pretend that i don’t know
what you’re talking about. well to me it sounds that i should behave
like a coward, and walk away from something really rotten, and that
the rot is blamed on me, without me even being there, not having an
opportunity to say anything for myself. that because of there being
something rotten, i should stop my plans, and adjust my life to the
rot. stop having fun. let the rot grow and live freely. myself turning
inwards and self-blaming.

this doesn’t really sound fair to me. that i should assume i’m not
welcome because a few people talk shit about me. (and me not even
knowing what this shit talk is about…)

exclusion and bullying and mean social games going on unquestioned,
and that the blame and shame is heaped on the one being bullied is
nothing new to me. i will not feel shame. i refuse to feel shame and
exclude myself, for being called “paranoid and accusing” without even
giving myself the chance to ask the persons saying so: “why?”

you didn’t want to. but still you did. the “conflict” was fed with your input.

i followed your advice and contacted (mx) and (v), and asked if
they would be willing to meet in february to talk about the exclusion
happening on the mailing list. ((mx) has already written freaky
weird statements to me. so i don’t really think this person is open
for a heart to heart sincere talk. but at least i try to connect
directly.)

i also contacted (d) again. it would be nice if you could give me
(m’s) contact info. or send mine to her. (i don’t have to tell anyone
that i’ve ever been in contact with you, if you feel that this would
give you pressure from persons, and would help to keep you out of this
thing that clearly seems to be a general problem within the local
scene.)

i really truly honestly do not know what’s going on in budapest right
now. but it seems very likely i will show up in february. it would
still be nice to meet you. maybe you’ve changed your mind about
meeting me. maybe not.

in any case. life goes on.

❤ (me)


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3 Responses

  1. […] post is related to this and this and this post as […]

  2. […] Read the blog post with her letters >> Here. […]

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